armsid Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 To over simplify it, there are too many people here for the amount that the job market can sustain....uncontrolled immigration which was actively encouraged by Bliar and his mates to import more labour voters and the state he got us into combined with an over inflated sense of entitlement and people now thinking that the country owes them a living rather than they owe the country gets us where we are...I dont know what the solution is and I think there is a real risk that people may not like the talk about cuts and austerity and will blindly vote the left back in who will make the situation much much worse.... in the ,70,s many may recall the 3 day week and as i worked at jaguar cars on maintenance we actually turned out more work over 6 days than in a normal week surely as quoted above too many people chasing too few jobs. my point is job sharing ( 3 days/3 days ) 10 hours per day at decent wage jobs for all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 To over simplify it, there are too many people here for the amount that the job market can sustain....uncontrolled immigration which was actively encouraged by Bliar and his mates to import more labour voters and the state he got us into combined with an over inflated sense of entitlement and people now thinking that the country owes them a living rather than they owe the country gets us where we are...I dont know what the solution is and I think there is a real risk that people may not like the talk about cuts and austerity and will blindly vote the left back in who will make the situation much much worse.... Whilst I agree on the bit about the labour market, it needs to be recognised that the old crow god rest her benevolent soul, actually created the benefit society, when she destroyed our industrial heritage overnight, and encouraged the now out of work labour force to go on incapacity benefit, in order to hide the shocking unemployment figures, Trouble is of course now with most employment in the service sector and staffed with low paid workers many being immigrants who whilst wanting to be here as a means of increasing their income opportunities whilst in fact they are actually being exploited by employers who can pay pittance wages, should they stay for good these immigrants will eventually reach retirement age and they will be entitled to state pension, although the amount they put into the state was minimal because of their low wage, now that really is storing a time bomb. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) the old crow god rest her benevolent soul, a real charmer, jim fixed it for her they make a lovely couple Edited June 27, 2014 by overandunder2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett1985 Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) blimey, my last comment went down well obviously there are instances where people are unavoidably on benefits, like the little boy who fell out of the tree, but i was refering to those that are obviously abusing the system for their own gain. you can throw as many scenarios as you wish into the mix of exceptions, however, there are undisputedly alot of cases where the system is being cheated because people are too bone idle to work, or dont feel that they should. these are the people that need to be targeted and rooted out of their culture of all for nothing. their needs to be more incentive to get these people off their ***** and back into some sort of a working world. even if that means voluntary work. and when i say incentive, i mean the realisation that they WILL earn more money by working than they can claiming from the state. for that to work however, employers need to get on board and start offering better wages which in itself creates other problems. i'm not sure that there will ever be a quick fix to get this sorted and i know the majority opinion is it need to be done swiftly, but the sooner we start doing something about it, the sooner it will begin to work. even if it is just small steps at a time. Edited June 27, 2014 by brett1985 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 at the end of the day there needs to be jobs to send these guys to or it will never change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 at the end of the day there needs to be jobs to send these guys to or it will never change. Somehow 1m eastern europeans found jobs You have to want to work, and possibly make some lifestyle changes and sacrifices first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 Somehow 1m eastern europeans found jobs You have to want to work, and possibly make some lifestyle changes and sacrifices first. I was in London recently, just as we walked past a begger sat on a blanket with his hand out, right next to him were two eastern Europeans working for the council sweeping the streets. Poignant moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) You have to want to work, and possibly make some lifestyle changes and sacrifices first. sacrifices i thought the point of working was to be better off if i were unemployed id expect a lifestyle change for the better when i start work, why would anyone want to make themselves worse off? Edited June 27, 2014 by overandunder2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) Somehow 1m eastern europeans found jobs could be worse they could all be claiming Edited June 27, 2014 by overandunder2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 sacrifices i thought the point of working was to be better off if i were unemployed id expect a lifestyle change for the better when i start work, why would anyone want to make themselves worse off? Getting a 'job' doesn't always mean instant gratification of being 'better off' but it is the start to a journey - some call it a 'career'. Improving your skills, finding better paid work as you go along. If there is no work in your town, then move to another town. This would be seen as a 'sacrifice' to many - but the taxpayer shouldn't have to subsidise people who don't want to 'get on their bike' even if it means moving away to another city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) Getting a 'job' doesn't always mean instant gratification of being 'better off' but it is the start to a journey - some call it a 'career'. Improving your skills, finding better paid work as you go along. If there is no work in your town, then move to another town. This would be seen as a 'sacrifice' to many - but the taxpayer shouldn't have to subsidise people who don't want to 'get on their bike' even if it means moving away to another city. Correct But wanting to work isn't the same as having to. A few may be fortunate enough to have jobs they love but most of us work because we have to and we therefore try to make the best of it, always looking for opportunities to improve our lot. I can think of a hundred things I'd rather be doing than working (like, ahem, contributing to discussion forums instead of cracking on with the accounts which is what I'm supposed to be doing.) I'd rather be shooting, riding my bike, pottering round the garden, going on holiday etc. But I must to work to pay for these other activities because I have no alternative source of income. Those who are completely ensnared and owned by the welfare industry (which is what it is) do have alternative means so they have no incentive and, crucially, no need to work: they are financially sedated. Remove benefits as a means to fund anything but the most bare essentials of life and desire to work will appear like magic. Edited June 27, 2014 by Gimlet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) Getting a 'job' doesn't always mean instant gratification of being 'better off' but it is the start to a journey - some call it a 'career'. Improving your skills, finding better paid work as you go along. If there is no work in your town, then move to another town. This would be seen as a 'sacrifice' to many - but the taxpayer shouldn't have to subsidise people who don't want to 'get on their bike' even if it means moving away to another city. probably not going to be a popular choice with most people so they will just stay put on the dole , sadly gimlet maybe right to a degree you either have to make benefits so unattractive any **** job looks good or make jobs pay better so people are interested which way you go would depend on how the uk standard of living will be viewed. Edited June 27, 2014 by overandunder2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 Correct But wanting to work isn't the same as having to. A few may be fortunate enough to have jobs they love but most of us work because we have to and we therefore try to make the best of it, always looking for opportunities to improve our lot. I can think of a hundred things I'd rather be doing than working (like, ahem, contributing to discussion forums instead of cracking on with the accounts which is what I'm supposed to be doing.) I'd rather be shooting, riding my bike, pottering round the garden, going on holiday etc. But I must to work to pay for these other activities because I have no alternative source of income. Those who are completely ensnared and owned by the welfare industry (which is what it is) do have alternative means so they have no incentive and, crucially, no need to work: they are financially sedated. Remove benefits as a means to fund anything but the most bare essentials of life and desire to work will appear like magic. probably not going to be a popular choice with most people so they will just stay put on the dole , sadly the gimlet maybe right to a degree you either have to make benefits so unattractive any **** job looks good or make jobs pay better so people are interested which way you go would depend on how the uk standard of living will be viewed. I think we're all on the same page here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) have to admit i wouldnt want to be the guy tasked with solving this one remove benefits or lower them alot crime will rocket poverty will be rife as alot of people will just view better of people as targets and britain viewed as almost as bad as romainia when it comes to standards of living BUT. leave them as they are nobody will be interested in **** jobs that pay sod all and the problem increases. i must admit im not that keen on canning benefits i may need them 1 day you never know what life has around the corner and it seems crazy to think about taking the little the government does give back to the tax payer they keep everything else. i know what people will say the tax payer doesnt get them, well thats not always true alot of sick people once worked and many have been made redundant over the years. lord knows how you solve it the government wont let the sqatter camps start and bodies start to stack in the streets so serious cuts i doubt will happen think of the cost of all those new prisons to house the ever growing criminal population and they closed half the courts and cut the police,mind you it would create jobs . Edited June 27, 2014 by overandunder2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STOTTO Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 Fine Ideas I have to say I find it hard to fault Gimlets philosophy on this however we now have a little taste of what to expect if you remove institutionalised support before substantially improving employment opportunities for those that can work, by this I mean a job with a wage that will at least replace the value of the aid provided by the state, to include the actual costs involved with going to work! This is without the incremental incentive of earning and retaining little extra to make the exercise worthwhile. The reality for those that are currently being subjected to the new welfare reforms are, we are witnessing a consequential increase in the number of people using food-banks with child poverty a greater issue, more people are being made homeless and record numbers are falling into rent/council tax arrears. At the moment most of those at the job centres will be encouraged to apply for similar ads as this: Wanted: ####house cleaner on Mars Long hours, low wage Pay own fares Free food and accommodation, (Food Bank and Skip close by) If you remove all of what many seem to believe to be the human dead weight element from the welfare system in the distorted reasoning that you will be reducing the welfare bill, well think again because the dead weight will have no alternative, in order to reduce their costs so that they are able to survive at some level you might find that they decide to jettison their dead weight kids, partners, financial commitments, etc. Life. The bill for all this will be picked up somewhere else down the line by, yes you guessed, the Tax Payer. The costs of dealing with the mess created will usually be far greater than before interference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 your not wrong remove the benefits and the **** hits the fan i fear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 Fine Ideas I have to say I find it hard to fault Gimlets philosophy on this however we now have a little taste of what to expect if you remove institutionalised support before substantially improving employment opportunities for those that can work, by this I mean a job with a wage that will at least replace the value of the aid provided by the state, to include the actual costs involved with going to work! This is without the incremental incentive of earning and retaining little extra to make the exercise worthwhile. The reality for those that are currently being subjected to the new welfare reforms are, we are witnessing a consequential increase in the number of people using food-banks with child poverty a greater issue, more people are being made homeless and record numbers are falling into rent/council tax arrears. At the moment most of those at the job centres will be encouraged to apply for similar ads as this: Wanted: ####house cleaner on Mars Long hours, low wage Pay own fares Free food and accommodation, (Food Bank and Skip close by) If you remove all of what many seem to believe to be the human dead weight element from the welfare system in the distorted reasoning that you will be reducing the welfare bill, well think again because the dead weight will have no alternative, in order to reduce their costs so that they are able to survive at some level you might find that they decide to jettison their dead weight kids, partners, financial commitments, etc. Life. The bill for all this will be picked up somewhere else down the line by, yes you guessed, the Tax Payer. The costs of dealing with the mess created will usually be far greater than before interference! So what, do nothing then? This country needs root and branch reform across the board, welfare is one part of it, a symptom of a greater problem rather than its cause. First we must accept that we have a problem and treat it as a socio/economic problem not a political problem as we do now. It doesn't matter how you analyse it, our economy cannot support the structural imbalance between the size of the unproductive state and the productive, over-taxed, over-regulated wealth creating sector and it will never be able to support it, ever. We cannot afford our unrealistic welfare state nor our unreformed, sacred cow health service - legacies of a post-war liberalising agenda which does not reflect the world we live in today, and we cannot afford to buck the market for electoral reasons, which the minimum wage was an attempt to do.. Nor can we afford our debased state education system which is rocketting backwards in comparison with much of the rest of the world, and we cannot afford in an over-populated, under-educated country to throw our labour market open to effectively the entire global workforce with virtually no controls over numbers or capital flight. And if we want to correct these errors we cannot afford to contract out our governance to overseas supranational institutions which will never act in our national interest. There's a few things to be getting on with. And I'm afraid that until we face reality all else is bar stool banter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) So what, do nothing then? This country needs root and branch reform across the board, welfare is one part of it, a symptom of a greater problem rather than its cause. First we must accept that we have a problem and treat it as a socio/economic problem not a political problem as we do now. It doesn't matter how you analyse it, our economy cannot support the structural imbalance between the size of the unproductive state and the productive, over-taxed, over-regulated wealth creating sector and it will never be able to support it, ever. We cannot afford our unrealistic welfare state nor our unreformed, sacred cow health service - legacies of a post-war liberalising agenda which does not reflect the world we live in today, and we cannot afford to buck the market for electoral reasons, which the minimum wage was an attempt to do.. Nor can we afford our debased state education system which is rocketting backwards in comparison with much of the rest of the world, and we cannot afford in an over-populated, under-educated country to throw our labour market open to effectively the entire global workforce with virtually no controls over numbers or capital flight. And if we want to correct these errors we cannot afford to contract out our governance to overseas supranational institutions which will never act in our national interest. There's a few things to be getting on with. And I'm afraid that until we face reality all else is bar stool banter. true but give the government more cash by taking away benefits they will just find another way to waste it so i doubt its the answer they could start by collecting the correct taxes from the large companies that avoid paying it that would go a long way to paying for the things you'v mentioned we cant afford, and a few less bonuses and golden handshakes wouldnt hurt Edited June 27, 2014 by overandunder2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegasus bridge Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 a real charmer, jim fixed it for her they make a lovely couple article-2366576-16AA27E3000005DC-238_634x430.jpg I'll trade you this ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) true but give the government more cash by taking away benefits they will just find another way to waste it so i doubt its the answer they could start by collecting the correct taxes from the large companies that avoid paying it that would go a long way to paying for the things you'v mentioned we cant afford, and a few less bonuses and golden handshakes wouldnt hurt My whole point is that there is no more to give the Government. We cannot pay for these things therefore we cannot have them. End of. Lack of revenue is not the problem. The problem is a fiscally incontinent state. The structural imbalance between the productive wealth generating private sector and the unproductive wealth consuming state sector is such that no matter how the economy grows, no matter how ruinously high taxes become, no matter if all businesses large and small are taxed 100% and every penny is collected we will always be in deficit. We will never be able to pay our way. We have created around ourselves a state structure that is beyond the means of a free market economy - which is the only kind that generates net wealth - to fund, ever. Expanding the population, generating more spending, more debt, more consumption is utterly futile. Edited June 27, 2014 by Gimlet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) I'll trade you this ! image.jpg that doesn't surprise me either they are all horrible people. Edited June 27, 2014 by overandunder2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 My whole point is that there is no more to give the Government. We cannot pay for these things therefore we cannot have them. End of. Lack of revenue is not the problem. The problem is a fiscally incontinent state. The structural imbalance between the productive wealth generating private sector and the unproductive wealth consuming state sector is such that no matter how the economy grows, no matter how ruinously high taxes become, no matter if all businesses large and small are taxed 100% and every penny is collected we will always be in deficit. We will never be able to pay our way. We have created around ourselves a state structure that is beyond the means of a free market economy - which is the only kind that generates net wealth - to fund, ever. Expanding the population, generating more spending, more debt, more consumption is utterly futile. there is more to give the government if they start collecting whats owed from overseas companies and millionaire tax avoidance schemes that are quite frankly having it off. do you really believe the benefits bill is so high, a few less government overseas jollys is another saving Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 Whilst I agree on the bit about the labour market, it needs to be recognised that the old crow god rest her benevolent soul, actually created the benefit society, when she destroyed our industrial heritage overnight, and encouraged the now out of work labour force to go on incapacity benefit, in order to hide the shocking unemployment figures, Trouble is of course now with most employment in the service sector and staffed with low paid workers many being immigrants who whilst wanting to be here as a means of increasing their income opportunities whilst in fact they are actually being exploited by employers who can pay pittance wages, should they stay for good these immigrants will eventually reach retirement age and they will be entitled to state pension, although the amount they put into the state was minimal because of their low wage, now that really is storing a time bomb. KW Yawn.... The benefits society started when the welfare state was introduced. When it became the elephant in the room, no one party has had the balls to change it as it is such a vote loser. So we just throw more millions after more to subsidise the old worn out inefficient industries. The problem was always going to come as the coal ran out ( and yes, i know there are still many more years down there at present) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STOTTO Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 Radical change The only way that this would ever be achieved is either by political consensus, (only likely to happen in the event of war) or by changing to a totally autocratic system of government with all the inherent problems that are manifesting almost everywhere in the countries where the system is in place. Radical change is often demanded by the few but in reality is rarely welcomed by the many, usually because of the unforeseen consequences for everyone once implemented! Sadly, I together with every government since after the war have no credible workable solutions to what has slowly but surely become a bloated over taxed prison for enterprise that mesmerises individual hope into the stifling intransigence of disillusionment for many! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 there is more to give the government if they start collecting whats owed from overseas companies and millionaire tax avoidance schemes that are quite frankly having it off. do you really believe the benefits bill is so high, a few less government overseas jollys is another saving Yes I do believe that the benefits bill, and many other bills which have been driven skywards for political reasons, is so high that it cannot be funded. The Government is only "owed" money because it has raised taxes or enlarged its tax base to try and bring more revenue within its grasp to offset the uncontrollable cost of its ever expanding activities and rising debts. The rate at which it consumes wealth has outstripped the ability of the economy to generate it. The fact that so many corporations and wealthy individuals are offshore to start with ought to tell us something. Chasing job creating companies and individuals out of the UK altogether isn't going to solve the economy's structural problem. 1% of the population is already paying 30% of all income tax collected. If Britain cannot provide an economic climate in which businesses can make money there are scores of other countries queueing up who can. We live in a hyper-competitive world. We do not have a funding problem. We have a spending addiction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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