fizzbangwhallop Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) Hang on a minute, I didn't just guess a random amount. I chose the right bullets for my rifle, carefully resized the cases and loaded the minimum recommended powder load as specified by the manufacturer, not sure what more reading would accomplish initially. This isn't the only site I've looked on - believe me, I have done my research. Now, I do realise that trying to tune the load to give increased power etc. is not to be taken lightly. I'm not sure Underdog's advice is necessarily the course to follow Good stuff Spandit........... glad to hear it. This 'fear fairy' has ridden bikes since he was old enough and ended up on an RC30 and never killed or injured anyone........or caused an accident on those or in a car. Don't think I even scared any little old ladies..... well one or two maybe? Trouble is the fear fairies may just have had the experience of getting it wrong and are speaking from experience? What Remmy1100 said on the first page about finding the sweet spot is half the reason I reload (alright just about the main reason apart from cost-saving although the kit has cost a bit over the years but now I think I've got it just where I want it) "but more powder gives you a different range of energy levels for taking target species at greater distances and insuring a clean kill ,adjusting powder also helps fine tune the optimal (sweet spot ) smallest possible grouping for your gun and component combination ie primers,case,powder and bullet." Cheers Fizz B) Still learning after all these years too..... Edited July 2, 2014 by fizzbangwhallop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 I haven't played about with powder weights. Looked up the load data before I started and for my powder the minimum was 24 and max was 26 so I just went for 25! I always start at the start load, not all guns/brass/primers make the max. I recommend you always start at the start load and work up in far smaller increments than a full grain, often 0.2 is what I use. That said most experienced loaders will exceed book max at times but they must also be very aware of all the pressure signs and the fact that a round that's safe at 5 degrees might not be safe at 25 degrees in mid summer. Personally I now work up a load one round at each change looking at a chronograph (because sometimes you put in more powder than can be burned) the effect is fill goes up speed does not! I look for pressure and actively seek the limits, then reduce back to account for hot days, wet ammo etc. Don't use my ways though as I do this at my risk with knowledge gained over years all the books tell you how to do things safely in the std way and don't go over book and neither think that you can start at the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 ok then dont follow it but all the fear fairies on here constantly bang on about guns blowing up forgetting they are proofed way way above anything you are going to do with appropiate powders. The same people drive or ride motor vehicles on the public roads of which caused over a thousand deaths last year! Go figure! :-) Fear fairies Underdog or just cautious in offering the wrong advice to the novice. Many use compressed and hot loads but you have to know what you are doing and know one has doubted that you don't. Hot loads may shoot flatter but aint much good if you have to spend ten minutes hammering the bolt open before the next shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Talking of proofed above, with what bullet? How far from the rifling? What Brass? What primer? Then figure in the fact that some new guns get a proof stamp without adequate proof ever being physically done (yes I have mentioned the new Remmington with the loose barrel this week). I for one don't wish to go to court over someone injuring or killing themselves by following daft advice and I don't want it on my conscience that it was even in part my fault. I have seen an action blow up and you don't want to be anyplace near it let alone 3", tread carefully with handloads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 3, 2014 Report Share Posted July 3, 2014 With the correct range of powders gents a max dose listed in manufactures data is a safe max. Do not read their max as danger. Or close to doom level! One scale of data will be different than another! One day folk will be saying with deep intake of breath' dont go over listed max' and then the next day come across different data that is half a grain up! I have old data books and the charge weights are in some (not all) a little higher than today! There is a huge safty margin. Proof loads are that high it matters not bullet or col it is! The only time it is going to go wrong is with to fast a powder or the wrong primer with a hard to ignite type. The Op has a correct powder and has started safe. Fine...but dont stop there from fear. He will know way before it gets silly it is getting warm! Just because we drive and ride all the time(v-twin man me) does not mean we are safe. We are in more danger on the roads than any max listed loads in a rifle. Fact. U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 3, 2014 Report Share Posted July 3, 2014 Fear fairies Underdog or just cautious in offering the wrong advice to the novice. Many use compressed and hot loads but you have to know what you are doing and know one has doubted that you don't. Hot loads may shoot flatter but aint much good if you have to spend ten minutes hammering the bolt open before the next shot. i had a conversation with a range officer a few years ago. his experience was entirely negative. A guy turned up at the range to evaluate some homeloads. the guy then destroyed the gun on the first shot. he said it was very messy. that was a direct result from an inexperienced loader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 3, 2014 Report Share Posted July 3, 2014 The only trouble with that account is that vital info is missing! The missing info encourages us to assume he was using the correct powder for starters! He may of filled a rifle catridge with bullseye! Or the wrong primer on a spherical powder! Equally to go on to assume it was due to him approaching near max of an appropiate charge is folly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 3, 2014 Report Share Posted July 3, 2014 it was the wrong powder used. plain and simple. wrong powder / wrong data for that powder; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted July 3, 2014 Report Share Posted July 3, 2014 The only trouble with that account is that vital info is missing! The missing info encourages us to assume he was using the correct powder for starters! He may of filled a rifle catridge with bullseye! Or the wrong primer on a spherical powder! Equally to go on to assume it was due to him approaching near max of an appropiate charge is folly. Don't know how much experience you have with reloading Underdog but the fact you used a chrono to tell you that you had to krank up the speed to make a rnd more efficient gives me a pretty good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted July 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2014 Don't know how much experience you have with reloading Underdog but the fact you used a chrono to tell you that you had to krank up the speed to make a rnd more efficient gives me a pretty good idea. How else does one tell? I've started reloading to save money & to make sure all my rounds are the same, I wouldn't like to be hit with what came out the muzzle of my .223, even if it wasn't running at max efficiency Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambsman Posted July 3, 2014 Report Share Posted July 3, 2014 With the correct range of powders gents a max dose listed in manufactures data is a safe max. Do not read their max as danger. Or close to doom level! One scale of data will be different than another! One day folk will be saying with deep intake of breath' dont go over listed max' and then the next day come across different data that is half a grain up! I have old data books and the charge weights are in some (not all) a little higher than today! There is a huge safty margin. Proof loads are that high it matters not bullet or col it is! The only time it is going to go wrong is with to fast a powder or the wrong primer with a hard to ignite type. The Op has a correct powder and has started safe. Fine...but dont stop there from fear. He will know way before it gets silly it is getting warm! Just because we drive and ride all the time(v-twin man me) does not mean we are safe. We are in more danger on the roads than any max listed loads in a rifle. Fact. U. Safety factors are exactly that. Safety factors. They exist for a reason in all walks of life. If you want to reduce the factor then so be it. It's up to you based on your own knowledge and experience and risk threshold. It would seem sensible when starting out to play safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 3, 2014 Report Share Posted July 3, 2014 Don't know how much experience you have with reloading Underdog but the fact you used a chrono to tell you that you had to krank up the speed to make a rnd more efficient gives me a pretty good idea. For what fact are you referring to exactly? I don't recall using a chrono to determine anything in this context. I don't even own a chrono! I also have not because I do not advocate just going off any chrono reading as a basis for scaling anything up! Data and case head measuring if on upper levels are my bench marks, not chrono readings! To what are you referring to Sir? U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 3, 2014 Report Share Posted July 3, 2014 Safety factors are exactly that. Safety factors. They exist for a reason in all walks of life. If you want to reduce the factor then so be it. It's up to you based on your own knowledge and experience and risk threshold. It would seem sensible when starting out to play safe. I do not want to reduce any safety factor, where did I imply that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted July 3, 2014 Report Share Posted July 3, 2014 For what fact are you referring to exactly? I don't recall using a chrono to determine anything in this context. I don't even own a chrono! I also have not because I do not advocate just going off any chrono reading as a basis for scaling anything up! Data and case head measuring if on upper levels are my bench marks, not chrono readings! To what are you referring to Sir? U. My apologies Underdog, getting your post mixed up with another, scary really when I reload for several calibres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted July 3, 2014 Report Share Posted July 3, 2014 How else does one tell? I've started reloading to save money & to make sure all my rounds are the same, I wouldn't like to be hit with what came out the muzzle of my .223, even if it wasn't running at max efficiency I have a chrono spandit and use it to find the speed of my most accurate load, to get to my accurate load I have a starting point from my manual, usually about 10%below max and work up with batchs of 3 in 0.5gr increments, I have experienced pressure problems before reaching manuals max load on some rifles whether this is twist or just barrel bore I do not know. This is the path we all take and once the ideal load for your rifle is achieved then a chrono will give you the fps so you can use the available data over extended ranges. Of course there is no reason not to chrono each and every load and it is interesting but I find it a bit of a waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 4, 2014 Report Share Posted July 4, 2014 My apologies Underdog, getting your post mixed up with another, scary really when I reload for several calibres. No probs :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted July 4, 2014 Report Share Posted July 4, 2014 Do not go by old load data, powder ingredients change. Use current data from the powder manufacture you wish to use. I loaded 243 with vith powder, 1gr above Lee and older VV load data. I loaded .25gr intervals upro Max book data. If I had followed your advice underdog I would be spitting bolt and chamber. First test load I had to take the wooden mallet to the bolt. You could hear and feel it was wrong. Load data had changed. 6gr less in the new vv load data. Sorry underdog but your comment is a little irresponsible. Hope no one follows your advice, gets hurt and end up with you having to answer to the judge. Every single book and site with load data states 10% from Max. Why do you think that is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 4, 2014 Report Share Posted July 4, 2014 Do not go by old load data, powder ingredients change. Use current data from the powder manufacture you wish to use. I loaded 243 with vith powder, 1gr above Lee and older VV load data. I loaded .25gr intervals upro Max book data. If I had followed your advice underdog I would be spitting bolt and chamber. First test load I had to take the wooden mallet to the bolt. You could hear and feel it was wrong. Load data had changed. 6gr less in the new vv load data. Sorry underdog but your comment is a little irresponsible. Hope no one follows your advice, gets hurt and end up with you having to answer to the judge. Every single book and site with load data states 10% from Max. Why do you think that is? Care to share the variables from the load data? Like different bullet and COL? I have never needed a mallet for any of the14 rifles I loaded for with scores of crass concocktions. Maybe I just got lucky or was it studying the components first to see what I was dealing with that saved me! :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted July 4, 2014 Report Share Posted July 4, 2014 Care to share the variables from the load data? Like different bullet and COL? I have never needed a mallet for any of the14 rifles I loaded for with scores of crass concocktions. Maybe I just got lucky or was it studying the components first to see what I was dealing with that saved me! :-( so you have thrown in Max powder, pressed the bullet in case and never got it wrong. Your either lying, a god, or soon to be with them. I said powder changes, not bullet or col. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted July 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2014 I might just cut open some shotgun cartridges & use that. I've got several hammers so not an issue to open it up again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 4, 2014 Report Share Posted July 4, 2014 (edited) http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle In the above link we have the powder the OP is using and at the max listed amount it is well in the max service pressure for that cartridge. Hence my very first comment. http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle In the other link (above) you will see a favourite powder of mine for this and other rounds, it gives good vel' for lower pressures. With this powder the max charge is miles away from the top service pressure or as someone said earlier a safety margin! Remember; top service pressure, not proof pressure and not dooms day pressures! Now if the OP had H322 or RL7 say there is no way I would of made my first comment! Where people go wrong is generalising, idiots are very resourceful, just the same as when an idiot gets behind the wheel of a car or other, they are going to hurt others or themselves, but we seem to accept that! But when someone says from experience what to do with a very safe powder in their rifle and use the dangerous word "max" all hell breaks loose I stick by first statement and I still say that all of us are in more danger on the roads than this feller with IMR4320 in 223. U. Sorry guy's, the links don't work as hoped. The first link should of been for IMR4320 and the lower link for H' BL-C2 in the 223x 55grn bullet data. Edited July 4, 2014 by Underdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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