snow white Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Hi lads can some body tell me why my cartriges are weighing driffrent after finished.36.420 /36.015 /36.175 /35.905 /35.860 /35.985. I am useing vectran a1.16 grains. obutater disc.and 14 mm wad 28 grams shot size 6 and new cases.i would like to now why.thanks for looking sorry if i have got some spelling wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Because there is natural variation in shot drop, powder drop,case weight etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow white Posted August 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Thanks cookoff first time weighed them after finnish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 I try to do under 2.5% variance each way. Shotgun reloading has some leeway too vary and not make much difference. Usually to exact or a little less, as for shot, within 1-1.5gram However if a bad recipe is selected, that may have bad shot to shot variation even when hand weighing every thing. Most reputable manufacturers and retailers distribute decent data, you'd be hard pressed to pick a lemon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow white Posted August 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Hi cookoff do you think that recipe is ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 I'm not too familiar with 20gauge loads. But if you have the data you should have speed and pressure. Then it should be safe. After that its just a matter of enjoying what you make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow white Posted August 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Ok thanks cookoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 http://www.####.co.uk/loads1.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Hi cookoff do you think that recipe is ok. I would have expected a 16mm fibre wad in a 70mm case with that but the powder measure at 16 grains doesn't sound too far off the mark. You might be able to raise it slightly but without a verified recipe I wouldn't. I have proofed a similar load but with a plastic z24 wad using 18 grains of A1 for an average pressure of 712 bar and velocity of 1280fps. The max is 820 bar but slight differences can make a significant difference so you have to err on the side of caution. I used a medium strength Fiocchi 615 primer in that recipe too so using a hotter primer could also raise pressures significantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 I would have expected a 16mm fibre wad in a 70mm case with that but the powder measure at 16 grains doesn't sound too far off the mark. You might be able to raise it slightly but without a verified recipe I wouldn't. I have proofed a similar load but with a plastic z24 wad using 18 grains of A1 for an average pressure of 712 bar and velocity of 1280fps. The max is 820 bar but slight differences can make a significant difference so you have to err on the side of caution. I used a medium strength Fiocchi 615 primer in that recipe too so using a hotter primer could also raise pressures significantly. Sound advice from sitsinhedges, A1 will power 20ga carts with 28gm of shot but A1 is at it's best with 24gm of shot. For 28gm A0 (or Tecna) will give better velocity and a smother cartridge, but for a cheap pigeon cart A1 will do the job and as sitsinhedges suggests try 18grains, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) I have just weighed ten new 70mm 20 gauge primed cases and the results do not surprise me. They are, in grams, 5.4, 5.45, 5.55, 5.57, 5.46, 5.58, 5.57, 5.65, 5.52, 5.6 The modern plastic tubed case is made by the Reifenhäuser extrusion method, and, before cutting, is in the form of a very long 'hosepipe' rolled onto a cage. The wall thickness of this long tube can vary. Home loaders using these new cases can experience this difference in thickness when they encounter a tight fitting wad or a very slack one. Thicker walled tubes weigh more than thin walled ones! Now, snow white, if you want to test your individual component masses, simply weigh the PRIMED case beforehand and then subtract this weight from the weight of the loaded shell. Edit: Weigh ten factory loaded shells from the same box. They may vary! However, on mass production factory machines, weak walled cases will often buckle and thick walled cases will fall victim to the machine's sensors if a tight fitting wad is encountered. When this occurs, the number of bad cases will be reduced from a batch. When home loaders bulk-buy new cases, they will encounter these examples and worse, like primers missing or in sidewise. I am afraid quality control ain't always what it should be! Edited August 26, 2014 by Floating Chamber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow white Posted August 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 So you are saying vectan A1but up powder to 18 grains i have 2 kilo of the stuff so got to use it up.thanks for your reploys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Snow White, post a photo of your finished crimps. A lot can be deduced from their appearance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 So you are saying vectan A1but up powder to 18 grains i have 2 kilo of the stuff so got to use it up.thanks for your reploys. Careful! What primer are you using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo33 Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) FC, that was my next question, what primer C&G data for a 70mm case, cx2000 primer, 16 grains A1, Gualandi h-15, 28grms #7, crimp close. Extrap: 1179 @2.5mtr 1135/346 ........@ 20mtr 994/303 press 682. The link to the Nobel sport page on FES website gives data for using an m686 with obturator and fibre, but seems a mile away from the C&G data :o As is always said on here......Please verify data yourself!!!!!!!! Edited August 25, 2014 by turbo33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Sound advice from sitsinhedges, A1 will power 20ga carts with 28gm of shot but A1 is at it's best with 24gm of shot. For 28gm A0 (or Tecna) will give better velocity and a smother cartridge, but for a cheap pigeon cart A1 will do the job and as sitsinhedges suggests try 18grains, I'm only suggesting his recipe remains as is if he hasn't any data for raising it. I proof all my loads so I know they are safe. FC, that was my next question, what primer C&G data for a 70mm case, cx2000 primer, 16 grains A1, Gualandi h-15, 28grms #7, crimp close. Extrap: 1179 @2.5mtr 1135/346 ........@ 20mtr 994/303 press 682. The link to the Nobel sport page on FES website gives data for using an m686 with obturator and fibre, but seems a mile away from the C&G data :o As is always said on here......Please verify data yourself!!!!!!!! Some of the claygame data is dire. Heaven knows where he got it from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo33 Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 I'm only suggesting his recipe remains as is if he hasn't any data for raising it. I proof all my loads so I know they are safe. Some of the claygame data is dire. Heaven knows where he got it from. Agreed, there is room for improvement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 So you are saying vectan A1but up powder to 18 grains i have 2 kilo of the stuff so got to use it up.thanks for your reploys. Stick with what you're loading now if it's working OK or get better data if it's not. No point taking chances with over-pressures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Stick with what you're loading now if it's working OK or get better data if it's not. No point taking chances with over-pressures. Good advice Sits; and yes, some of the loads on the disc are are more than a bit iffy. I would use A0 for a 28gram fibre load in 20 gauge; however, I save lead shot and stick to A1 powder with 24/5 grams of shot. They do all that I want them to do. I tend to use my Yildiz o/u .410 more so these days, with a cracking fibre load of 16 grams in a 3" case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Good advice Sits; and yes, some of the loads on the disc are are more than a bit iffy. I would use A0 for a 28gram fibre load in 20 gauge; however, I save lead shot and stick to A1 powder with 24/5 grams of shot. They do all that I want them to do. I tend to use my Yildiz o/u .410 more so these days, with a cracking fibre load of 16 grams in a 3" case. +1 The slower A0 for 28gm and A1 for 24gm with a 615 primer. There is also an A1 Special Vectan powder but you do not see it in the shops. Start at 16grains of A1 if you want and then increase to 18grains remember more than just the amount of powder effects pressure i.e quality of crimp for one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow white Posted August 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Hi lads thank you all for reploys i donot now how to put photos on this site if some body can tell me how to do it when my son comes on wednesday i will get him to doit.thank you all again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Hi, A1 is a powder that performs bestwith 24/26 gr, some loads can reach 27 but, having more progressive powders, it makes more sense to use these for 28gr. The following was proofed in Italy at the national proof house: 70mm Fiocchi 615 B&P Z2M19 wad 1.15/1.18 gr X 25gr #7 (uk 6): V0 387 - 395, Pmax 695 bar Instead 70mm Fiocchi 615 LB6 wad 1.25gr X 27gr reported circa 842bar and V0: 404. I know the NSI website provides users with a 28gr loads claiming to be 750 bar; however: commercial powder are not comparable with the powders we get. Big manufacturers have powder made to measure to suit a particular load or shell's brand. The powders we can get are different to those made for big manufacturer and any original load should not be replicated! Vectan powders have gone through several changes throughout the years to make powders a lot more progressive than they used to be, even todays' powders denote huge changes in vivacity between batches and, IMH there are very few 'safe' loads and if you experiment or go over the powder own limits, you should always proof the loads. All the best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Hi, A1 is a powder that performs bestwith 24/26 gr, some loads can reach 27 but, having more progressive powders, it makes more sense to use these for 28gr. The following was proofed in Italy at the national proof house: 70mm Fiocchi 615 B&P Z2M19 wad 1.15/1.18 gr X 25gr #7 (uk 6): V0 387 - 395, Pmax 695 bar Instead 70mm Fiocchi 615 LB6 wad 1.25gr X 27gr reported circa 842bar and V0: 404. I know the NSI website provides users with a 28gr loads claiming to be 750 bar; however: commercial powder are not comparable with the powders we get. Big manufacturers have powder made to measure to suit a particular load or shell's brand. The powders we can get are different to those made for big manufacturer and any original load should not be replicated! Vectan powders have gone through several changes throughout the years to make powders a lot more progressive than they used to be, even todays' powders denote huge changes in vivacity between batches and, IMH there are very few 'safe' loads and if you experiment or go over the powder own limits, you should always proof the loads. All the best +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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