First geese , Canada Didn't fall

[6.5x55SE]

Interesting the comments about missing in front due to over leading so you Gentleman having those thoughts never ever wound anything or butt end them !!!! Because if you do wound or butt end Quarry time to time as I do that tells me that I've not maintained my swing resulting in shooting behind !!!!! And not saying you can't or don't miss in front but in general it's behind. Waiting for the incoming smiles.

[Guest cookoff013]

Hi guys.

Had my first geese last night .

Went for the evening flight after feeding and bagged three geese between me and 2 other guns.

Not the biggest bag but we generally keep it small so nothings wasted.

I sank a big old canada that crumpled in the air . I was shooting with 32g 4s

As I went to retrieve the bird ( no dog) to my surprise it got up and started running . I gave it another shot and it stopped. I hate to see any animal not dead when it hits the ground.

Another skein cam over and I picked of the back bird . The bird dropped about 10ft and looked like a dead bird , again it managed to pull itself back up to join the skein.

I know these are big birds but i thought 32g 4s would drop them dead . Although I was over the moon with my first canada of the season the thought of the one that I pricked was lingering in the back of my mind.

Any thoughts or ideas on other loads.

I examined the bird I retrieved and I must have hit it centre pattern because the breast and wings were peppered.

 

 

why on earth did you think 4s would be up to the job?

[00jacksonp]

 

why on earth did you think 4s would be up to the job?

Well they were low birds and I knew they would be . Dont get me wrong I will not be doing it again that's for sure and have definitely learnt my lesson.

I have really enjoyed everyone s help here and appreciated the constructive advice. With all due respect Cookoff I feel your rhetorical question has been the most negative / pointless response I have received,

Lets keep it constructive aye?

[kent]

Interesting the comments about missing in front due to over leading so you Gentleman having those thoughts never ever wound anything or butt end them !!!! Because if you do wound or butt end Quarry time to time as I do that tells me that I've not maintained my swing resulting in shooting behind !!!!! And not saying you can't or don't miss in front but in general it's behind. Waiting for the incoming smiles.

 

yes the only time I tend to shoot them in the butt is when I have to stop my swing from my poor "marsh stance", generally yes most miss most things behind but we all shoot different , to think otherwise is a tad ignorant. I generally need to be on the beak and swing through pulling, with a new gun on geese I should tell them to try and miss it in front and yes it does seems to work with 90% of folk.

[marsh man]

We have said a lot about using big size shot , chokes , and guns but just on a lighter note a few years back we used to have a lot of Dutch and German teams on ours for game shoots and on one of the early Partridge days the team was lined out when a skein of Canadas came towards them around 40yds up , we looked at each other as they were going over and one of them who was a top clay shooter and shot for his country put up his gun fired two shots and the two geese were both dead before they hit the ground , and the gun he was using was a 20bore with 7s in the chambers and when we hung then up they looked like they had both fell asleep as there was no sign of any blood.........both perfect head shots and that was in the days of lead shot just in case someone ask.

[Spaniel]

Found on another Web site

05-12-2011, 16:06#1

 

aliS

 

SD RegularJoin Date

 

Guide: How much lead to give a goose (steel vs lead)

 

How much lead to give a goose and the variation of lead between lead and steel.

 

A constant question from new wildfowlers that I remember asking is how much lead do I have to give a goose? Well with all the variables, interpretation and knack most people have develop over the years it can be hard to quantify. The typical answer that my father gave me was Give it a good lead, very helpful.

 

In my head I know with my preferred 3 load of lead #3s I give an average speed and height goose 2 x it's body length and adjust for height and speed as I deem fit but I cant explain how. Bum, beak keep swinging that'll do... bang. Even with this though I miss more than I hit.

 

During an extremely bored and unproductive morning at work today I sat down to work out a few differences between the lead load I use in my 12g and the steel load in my 10g.

 

Please accept that these figures are ballpark and it is the comparison between the lead required for lead vs. steel that I was most interested in. However the results proved interesting with a larger variation than I initially expected.

 

My comparison is for 12g Eley Alphamax 3 lead #3s and 10g Winchester Drylok 3 ½ Supreme Steel #2s.

 

First of all though how fast does a Goose fly? The most credible information I could gain came from the world wide web and is the rough speed for a Canada goose but sounds about right to me.

 

Canada Goose Speed

Cruising and preparing to land 30 mph or 13.4 m/s

Travelling distance / en route to feeding 40 mph or 17.9 m/s

Max speed / evasion 60 mph or 26.8 m/s

 

And what sort of velocities are my shells producing? The velocities used are the speeds recorded at 20 and 40m with the specified muzzle velocity being discarded. The velocity results are from a third party however I have accepted them as a true and accurate value for the purposes of this and also lack of anything better. For 0 20m the speed at 20m is used, for 20m to 40m the speed at 40m is used, the sum of the two results being used for the time to travel 40m. I know this is not the most accurate granted but the comparison is consistent over the two loads and is like I said a ballpark figure aiming to describe the variance the amount of lead required.

 

12g Eley Alphamax Magnum Lead #3s

Observed Velocity (seconds) / Time (seconds)

0 20m 272 m/s @ 20m / 0.0735sec

20 40m 203 m/s @ 40m / 0.0985 sec

Total time to the 40m mark / 0.1720sec

 

10g Winchester Drylok 3 ½ Steel Supreme #2s

0 20m 396 m/s @ 20m / 0.0505sec

20 40m 304 m/s @ 40m / 0.0657sec

Total time to the 40 yard mark / 0.1163sec

 

So by knowing the speed of the quarry and the speed of the payload at a given range we can calculate how far the goose can travel in the time it takes the shot to reach the goose which can in turn be interpreted as required lead.

 

12g Lead #3s

Goose speed / lead required

Lead required @ 20m

Preparing to land / 0.98m

Travelling distance / 1.32m

Max speed / 1.96m

 

lead required @ 40m

Preparing to land / 2.30m

Travelling distance / 3.08m

Max speed / 4.61m

 

 

10g Steel #2s

Lead required @ 20m lead required @ 40m

Preparing to land / 0.67m

Travelling distance / 0.90m

Max speed / 1.35m

 

lead required @ 40m

Preparing to land / 1.56m

Travelling distance / 2.08m

Max speed / 3.11m

 

 

So the results? A slow goose shot with steel at 20m needs about a goose length, a goose shot at 40m with lead which is going like the clappers needs 4-5 times a goose length, and everything else some where in the middle!

 

Feel free to take this with pich of salt but I do hope it helps somebody out whether it be a new comer to wildfowling or someone trying steel shot for the first (and probably last) time.

 

Ali

[marsh man]

Like you say "Ali" all those figures and cultulations might help somebody but most people are self taught and develop there own way of marksmanship , some shoot with both eyes open and some with one eye shut and so on . I find the people who have shot several geese are less nervous when they take a shot and know where to put the shot where somebody who are after there first or only get one on rare occasions are so tense up with excitement they have a job to hold the gun strait let alone putting the shot in the right place . That is known as Goose fever.

[Adie271]

 

Great answer

 

That was deep and very scientific I guess you work as a mathematician lol

[00jacksonp]

Great answer

 

That was deep and very scientific I guess you work as a mathematician lol

+1 . Great to actually have a few figures to back up theory.

Now i just have to quickly work out how long 4-5 goose lengths before i pull the trigger.

[hifly]

As a former shooting instructor we find that most people see lead diffrently what is 1 foot in front to some is 6 inches or even 2 foot to others, most targets are missed behind because your eyes are telling you you are in front of the target and your brain is saying stop you are to far in front and going to miss, it is very hard to miss a target in front, most shooters miss because they stop there swing. we teach shooters to shoot geese by treating the head like a driven partridge and not to look at the body ! not always easy ! ( basically just as Boyd said )

[silver pigeon 3]

Hifly is right lead is very perceptive, when trying to help my lad with his shooting there is no point me saying increase the lead by 1 foot as that only means anything to me. It is much better to say something along the lines of whatever lead you think you were giving increase it by half etc.

After a while you know when a shot is good as soon as you pull the trigger, and then hopefully when a miss happens you know why!

[Guest cookoff013]

Well they were low birds and I knew they would be . Dont get me wrong I will not be doing it again that's for sure and have definitely learnt my lesson.

I have really enjoyed everyone s help here and appreciated the constructive advice. With all due respect Cookoff I feel your rhetorical question has been the most negative / pointless response I have received,

Lets keep it constructive aye?

 

 

my point was you were probably advised wrong on your cartridge choice. obviously you or someone made the decision to shoot #4 steel at geese. so s few points here, did you know that due to the english / american shotsize comparisons a uk steel 4 is a US steel#5 and until a few years ago #6 lead was allowed by the cpsa, and steel upto #4 for shooting clays ! i`ll dig out a link. i think it was 2004 or so.

those UK4 steel when shot at 1400fps are like a classic uk lead 7 at 40 yards. there would be very little differential about the two both MV at 1400fps and 40 yards being near equal.

 

that rhetorical question, would be "how did you make the decision to purchase #4 steel shot" to me thats way more interesting.

wymberly and i did a bit of number crunching comparing steel shot / like for like and data tables with energy information. the eye opener with steel is this, going up 2 shotsizes only is just about physical appearence. ie shotcount / oz, thats only 1/2 the story. the energies we calculated were with the 1400fps max, most cip cartridges are not that fast.

the main point we found out is that to have a shotsize comparable to its lead counterpart that to have near similar energies at 40yards (40 yards was used as a reasonable maximum sporting distance ) to go up 3 shotsizes to have a near comparable performance. thats not pattern, or load size. that "model" we worked on is for 1400fps not the 1300fps most steel runs at or the 1500fps+ that homeloads or american steel runs at. so there is that issue, however we had to sort out some ground rules for the consistency.

 

as for the "With all due respect Cookoff I feel your rhetorical question has been the most negative / pointless response I have received" and " Lets keep it constructive aye?"

 

if you feel thats the most negative post you have recieved and pointless then obviously you have not been here a while. stick around (!) there may even be some helpful people here !

 

i dont feel that my question that bad. we`ve all been given duff advice form the many RFDs that try and sell the cartridges they`ve just happend to sell that seem to be good enough for anything.

 

here is alittle advice, for ducks shoot 2s in steel, even at the very poor cip speeds thats going work. steel is steel, not lead.

as for geese, you could probably "get away" with using 1s - Bs for close stuff. and BBs for no nonsense shooting.

 

due to the "low" density of steel and the sizing grade (its sizes in mm so lead will always have the edge), that even changing from a UK steel 5 to a UK steel 3 is the equivalent lead change of lead UK 7 to a lead UK 6 ,

do you understand ?

 

as all this may be gobbledygook to you. i`ll boil it down......

 

buy these shells.....

http://www.gamebore.com/products/34/12g-magnum-steel-3

in a #3 or #1 steel for duck or light goose load.....

 

and these

http://www.gamebore.com/products/35/12g-mammoth-steel-3-12

in BB if your gun can handle it.

 

you do not want to be chasing shot birds all over the place. thats a waste of energy, let the shells do the work.

 

Edits in read to avoid any confusions/....

Edited October 3, 2014 by cookoff013

[anser2]

I can only echo your words cookoff. For the past 5 years the smallest steel I use for duck have been 3s and 2s when I expect high mallard. I find I get more clean kills and down more birds than when I have used smaller steel shot. But we are all individuals and even back in the lead days we all had our own favoured shot size for wildfowl. One of the little quirks that make our sport so interesting.

Edited October 3, 2014 by anser2

[motty]

 

 

my point was you were probably advised wrong on your cartridge choice. obviously you or someone made the decision to shoot #4 steel at geese. so s few points here, did you know that due to the english / american shotsize comparisons a uk steel 4 is a US steel#5 and until a few years ago #6 lead was allowed by the cpsa, and steel upto #4 for shooting clays ! i`ll dig out a link. i think it was 2004 or so.

those UK4 steel when shot at 1400fps are like a classic uk lead 7 at 40 yards. there would be very little differential about the two both MV at 1400fps and 40 yards being near equal.

 

that rhetorical question, would be "how did you make the decision to purchase #4 steel shot" to me thats way more interesting.

wymberly and i did a bit of number crunching comparing steel shot / like for like and data tables with energy information. the eye opener with steel is this, going up 2 shotsizes only is just about physical appearence. ie shotcount / oz, thats only 1/2 the story. the energies we calculated were with the 1400fps max, most cip cartridges are not that fast.

the main point we found out is that to have a shotsize comparable to its lead counterpart that to have near similar energies at 40yards (40 yards was used as a reasonable maximum sporting distance ) to go up 3 shotsizes to have a near comparable performance. thats not pattern, or load size. that "model" we worked on is for 1400fps not the 1300fps most steel runs at or the 1500fps+ that homeloads or american steel runs at. so there is that issue, however we had to sort out some ground rules for the consistency.

 

as for the "With all due respect Cookoff I feel your rhetorical question has been the most negative / pointless response I have received" and " Lets keep it constructive aye?"

 

if you feel thats the most negative post you have recieved and pointless then obviously you have not been here a while. stick around (!) there may even be some helpful people here !

 

i dont feel that my question that bad. we`ve all been given duff advice form the many RFDs that try and sell the cartridges they`ve just happend to sell that seem to be good enough for anything.

 

here is alittle advice, for ducks shoot 2s in steel, even at the very poor cip speeds thats going work. steel is steel, not lead.

as for geese, you could probably "get away" with using 1s - Bs for close stuff. and BBs for no nonsense shooting.

 

due to the "low" density of steel and the sizing grade (its sizes in mm so lead will always have the edge), that even changing from a steel 5 to a steel 3 is the equivalent lead change of lead7 to a lead5,

do you understand ?

 

as all this may be gobbledygook to you. i`ll boil it down......

 

buy these shells.....

http://www.gamebore.com/products/34/12g-magnum-steel-3

in a #3 or #1 steel for duck or light goose load.....

 

and these

http://www.gamebore.com/products/35/12g-mammoth-steel-3-12

in BB if your gun can handle it.

 

you do not want to be chasing shot birds all over the place. thats a waste of energy, let the shells do the work.

Whilst I generally agree with what you say, range has to be taken into account. A 25 yard Canada should EASILY be killed with a no.4 steel, provided the operater has placed the charge in the correct place. Last night I got caught out by some canadas and only had duck loads in. I poleaxed a 30 yard Canada with 36 gram of 3s.

I would wholeheartedly recommend a bigger size for normal flighting, but I think the blame here can be attributed to poor marksmanship. We know that a Canada hit up the bum with 42 BBB is unlikely to drop dead.

[6.5x55SE]

As a former shooting instructor we find that most people see lead diffrently what is 1 foot in front to some is 6 inches or even 2 foot to others, most targets are missed behind because your eyes are telling you you are in front of the target and your brain is saying stop you are to far in front and going to miss, it is very hard to miss a target in front, most shooters miss because they stop there swing. we teach shooters to shoot geese by treating the head like a driven partridge and not to look at the body ! not always easy ! ( basically just as Boyd said )

 

Thank you Hifly I am know shooting instructor or ever will be. But have shot many Geese of all varieties in fact far too many in some eyes I mearly try to help others who seem to struggle to consistently cleanly kill Geese. I like a £ for every person I have helped. What has served me well is to treat the Goose head as a Snipe pick one Goose and area in the sky I am attempting to kill it as I mount my Gun on the Birds beak I fire as my gun tucks into my shoulder meaning I never see a lead so when asked How much lead did I give that bird my answer is I don't know also as I've seen many do I don't what I call is Track a bird eg mount my Gun then track it for a period of time before I fire. My very good friend who I shoot Geese with on a weekly basis does Track them and when we are both on form many many times over the years I've killed my 2 Geese before he has killed one and this NOT because I'm a better shot or indeed a smart butt just we have different styles of shooting with regularly success.

[Guest cookoff013]

i did say #3 or #1 steel for light goose work, light meaning close.

 

what "close" means is actually open to interpretation.

 

whilst even a single #9 steel pellet can kill a goose (sub 11 inches if shot in the head) that doesnt really mean its a "sporting load"

 

i`d expect if a canada was shot with 42 BBBs it would drop (is that 1.5oz load or actually 42xBBB ?)

[6.5x55SE]

i did say #3 or #1 steel for light goose work, light meaning close.

 

what "close" means is actually open to interpretation.

 

whilst even a single #9 steel pellet can kill a goose (sub 11 inches if shot in the head) that doesnt really mean its a "sporting load"

 

i`d expect if a canada was shot with 42 BBBs it would drop (is that 1.5oz load or actually 42xBBB ?)

I ain't got a clue where you get your facts and figures from But I must have been dreaming all my 40+years Shooting Geese as American shot eg 4 are 3's not 5's and just picking last season alone the Geese I shoot on the foreshore I used Steel 3's and 2's 36gr they was not low nor was my dog chasing wounded Geese all over the Marsh and IF I could be sure every Goose would only be 25-30yrd I use nothing but a 20ga with steel and same shot size and no I'm not being Big Headed or better than everybody else there are plenty better than me out there But come on 25-30yrd !!!!! Best I pack up Wildfowling or better still just laugh at those statements you make

[Guest cookoff013]

uk steel 3 is a us steel 4

uk steel 4 is a US steel 5

uk steel 5 is a US steel 6

.

lylevale stick to Uk sizes, and gambore have stuck to US sizes.

i`ve cut up enough shells to know whats written on the side and whats in the cartridge are 2 different things.

[Guest cookoff013]

I ain't got a clue where you get your facts and figures from But I must have been dreaming all my 40+years Shooting Geese as American shot eg 4 are 3's not 5's and just picking last season alone the Geese I shoot on the foreshore I used Steel 3's and 2's 36gr they was not low nor was my dog chasing wounded Geese all over the Marsh and IF I could be sure every Goose would only be 25-30yrd I use nothing but a 20ga with steel and same shot size and no I'm not being Big Headed or better than everybody else there are plenty better than me out there But come on 25-30yrd !!!!! Best I pack up Wildfowling or better still just laugh at those statements you make

 

check out my previous post, i highlighted a point in green. if thats what you are on about.?

 

one of the odd things though, stateside they actually recomend T,F 6mm / 7mm 5mm shot for geese, thats in the case of 4.5MM 10% bigger 4.5mm-5mm !

 

the issue is with steel, its graded by size via the "lead system" thats by size, i think that was its initial downfall.

Edited October 3, 2014 by cookoff013

[6.5x55SE]

uk steel 3 is a us steel 4

 

uk steel 4 is a US steel 5

uk steel 5 is a US steel 6

.

And for that I'm man enough to apologise as we are saying the same thing. I'm also well aware of state side stating Large Letter size shot and over the years I've seen people shooting AAA OBuck OOBuck at Geese in pure desperation to kill one. For me far far too much technical wrote about what should work or won't work. For me 1/4 and 1/2 choke Steel 32g or 36gr us4/eng3 and us2/eng1 from my 12ga has and will kill cleanly any Goose species foreshore or inland if I or indeed anybody does the right thing get up front and " nut em " also " just because you can't do it don't knock or disbelieve those that can "

[marsh man]

I agree with what your trying to say Boyd ,every cartridge , gun and the person behind it have limitations and its no good trying to shoot at Geese with large shot at 50yds if you cant kill them with 3s or 4s at 30 to 35yds . We have all heard where a person put on hear where he killed one at 50yds but how many did he hit and they carried on at 50yds ,but I would imagine there is more out of range shooting at geese than any other bird.

[motty]

I agree with what your trying to say Boyd ,every cartridge , gun and the person behind it have limitations and its no good trying to shoot at Geese with large shot at 50yds if you cant kill them with 3s or 4s at 30 to 35yds . We have all heard where a person put on hear where he killed one at 50yds but how many did he hit and they carried on at 50yds ,but I would imagine there is more out of range shooting at geese than any other bird.

I would say 50 yards is a normal kind of range to shoot at, especially for pinkfeet. I would be happy indeed to have pinks coming over regularly at 50 yards.

[6.5x55SE]

Marsh Man and Motty both comments IMHO very True.

[kent]

Not only do we all have different technique and all see lead differently, we also see range differently. One might think their 50 yards is the same as everyone elses (it should be) but I guarantee you it aint!

 

" I know a guy that shoots loads of geese, killing them stone dead with number five steel clay loads out to 50 yards, but he is really shocking at calling range LOL "

 

Its quite amazing a guy some 80 yards away from me the other week called one of my shots 50 yards, now that was going to be about 130 yards away from him and in all honesty it might well have been but if I had to say I should say about 45 or less. Now The same guy then thought he saw a flightless goose left out on the sand at 200 yards ( I know full well I can see a goose clearly at 200 yards and I couldn't see it with the naked eye and he had binos and still seemed unsure) so I guess he is about as good at judging range as I am at knitting

 

So how do a calculate my lead? Well I don't my brain tells my index finger when I have the sight picture I suppose.

[anser2]

I have said this before and doubtless will again on cartridges and shot sizes. If you put a dozen experianced wildfowlers in a pub , give them a pint of beer each and asked them which was their favoured cartridge and shot size you would get a dozen different answers and all would be right for their own type of shooting. Over the years we have all worked out what works best for our own guns, the range we shoot confidently at and our style of shooting. Its one of the things that makes wldfowling such an interesting sport. Back in the 1970s I can remember you Boyed knocking out high pink after high pink with Eley magnum lead 5s and 4s though I prefered 3s in those days. Then I got a new magnum with i\c barrels. A fellow club member turned up at a goose cull at a local estate with a box of Eley Aphamax AAA. We all kidded him that they would not have the pattern for geese so I ended up swopping his shells for some winchester 3s. Towards the end of the flight a sick canada with a hanging leg flew past 70 yards off. A mate said give it one of those AAA. The result looked as though the goose had hit a brick wall. Later I found 10 pellets had hit it . Later pattening found with i\c the AAAs threw very good patterns and for the remainder of the box (22 shells ) I retrieved 17 geese over the next few months and many of them were very good birds. I cant say I would recomend AAA for for geese, but in that gun they did the job well.

 

Later when we had to use steel I tried a variety of loads and started to hate steel with a vengence , that was until I discovered full after chokes and BBB shot. With my HLS .700 choke I coud acheve very dense patterns and Pellets big enough to do the job at 50 yards. Once again I had a load that suited me , gun \ choke for rangy geese and recon I can keep my average below one goose in the bag for every three shots over a wide range of forshore situations. But on the other hand I have shot a lot of greylag while duck shooting with Gamebore Mammoths no 3 , using factory chokes 1\4. Quite often the geese are not dead , but usualy they are so badly hit that they cannot make any attempt to escape.

 

We will all have a choke combination that works for us and our gun , but on the other hand personaly I am constently looking for something new so my favoured load\shot size in evolving all the time. As for me 1 9\16 BBB and my after choke for flighting geese and No 2 or BB for decoying geese inland is 1\4 choke , but reaonable range I am quite happy to use mammoth no 3 for geese when out duck flighting if one takes me by surprise. One final point I have as yet to find any factory steel shell that will cleanly kill geese consistantly much over 50 yards and what steel will not do that could happen with lead is take a goose at 60 or a little more yards range which the old Winchester XXX buffered copper plated 3 inch lead load could consistantly if you could put the shot in the right place.

Edited October 4, 2014 by anser2