fenboy Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Oklahoma Girl Shoots Home Intruder: 12-Year-Old Uses Family's Gun To Protect Self, Home http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/20/oklahoma-girl-shoots-home-intruder_n_1992381.html Hey maybe in your world, kids like this should be killed and raped, but thankfully she does not live in the UK and managed to protect herself. Says a lot about you though. As do your thoughts say a lot about you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 When CF handguns were legit in England I often bought the American 'Guns and Ammo' mag' as there were lots of relevant articles on reloading etc. I remember reading many instances of CC (concealed carry) permit holders halting or thwarting robberies, muggings etc and in many cases saving lives, but hardly any were published in mainstream media even over there. Many now are, including the sad case of a woman who was at the time a CC permit holder but had to leave her personal firearm in her vehicle the day she was to attend a seminar in a 'gun free' zone (which doesn't allow the carrying of firearms by even CC permit holders) and was brutally beaten, raped and left for dead by three assailants on her way back to her vehicle. How unlucky can you get? There may once again come a time when the carrying of personal sidearms for self defence in England is allowed, but I doubt it will happen in my lifetime. Out of all European countries I think there is only mainland UK and one other where no form of carrying any item for the sake of self defence is permissible; not even a pepper spray. Our Government and its politicians would rather we were victims than carry any form of self defence. What that says about the regard with which our politicians hold its citizens is for you to decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted November 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 I think the other country you are thinking of is either Denmark or Iceland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 There are several hurdles for you to get over before anything like this happens here. First obviously you need to get handguns returned then you need to gain permission to hold said firearms then concealed carry of same for the purpose of killing another person who you decide is a threat to you.it ain't going to happen boys.I was informed on another post that you can still hold a handgun in the UK and Wales for self defense try that.it must be true I saw it on pigeon Watch.Atb from the straw man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted November 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 ... concealed carry of same for the purpose of killing another person who you decide is a threat to you.it ain't going to happen boys.I was informed on another post that you can still hold a handgun in the UK and Wales for self defense try that.it must be true I saw it on pigeon Watch.Atb from the straw man. It's clear that you know nothing of conceal carry. You don't hold a weapon for killing somebody, you hold it to stop someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 still hold a handgun in the UK and Wales. Is wales not in the UK. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) It's clear that you know nothing of conceal carry. You don't hold a weapon for killing somebody, you hold it to stop someone. Not in this country you don't.you hold your weapons for sporting purposes.it is illegal to shoot people fatally or not.and you are right i do not know much about conceal and carry.because I have no interest in handguns and it is not a legal action in this country. Edited November 22, 2014 by bostonmick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Is wales not in the UK. ? Yes it is as is northern Ireland the latter has different laws to us on firearms.And the reason I singled Wales was because someone made a specific post about Wales and self defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Wales was because someone made a specific post about Wales and self defense. Yes I read that. I would like to see something to back it up sounds a bit dodgy to me, but I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Oklahoma Girl Shoots Home Intruder: 12-Year-Old Uses Family's Gun To Protect Self, Home http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/20/oklahoma-girl-shoots-home-intruder_n_1992381.html Hey maybe in your world, kids like this should be killed and raped, but thankfully she does not live in the UK and managed to protect herself. Says a lot about you though. If she had lived in the UK she would not have been in the house in oklahoma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordieh Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Oklahoma Girl Shoots Home Intruder: 12-Year-Old Uses Family's Gun To Protect Self, Home http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/20/oklahoma-girl-shoots-home-intruder_n_1992381.html Hey maybe in your world, kids like this should be killed and raped, but thankfully she does not live in the UK and managed to protect herself. Says a lot about you though. I'm with you Steppenwolf if someone tries to rob you out and about or especially in your home you should be allowed to use lethal force to stop them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodlander Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 I can't believe anyone can think that the right to carry a concealed weapon is a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Quote. I can't believe anyone can think that the right to carry a concealed weapon is a good thing. I suppose someone that is being beat to death in their own home, or stabbed in the street. Might think its a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Is there any empirical evidence that demonstrates concealed carry actually reduces incidents of violent or deadly assault? Not anecdotal evidence, but real verifiable evidence. It is easy to cite anecdotal evidence of how having a gun may have stopped someone being beaten/killed, but equally there will be as many examples of where carrying a fire extinguisher would have stopped someone being burned/killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) Quote. It is easy to cite anecdotal evidence of how having a gun may have stopped someone being beaten/killed. There are numerous incidents were being armed has saved peoples lives in America for example. I can't be bothered looking them up, feel free to check yourself. I will give you one example were being armed saved someone from being a helpless victim. Quote. ( Let me lay out just a few of the facts. On Saturday 13 June 1981, Sammy Brush was doing his rounds as a postman. Fortuitously, under his jacket and shirt, he was wearing light body armour. At around 1.00 pm, he arrived to deliver a letter at the home of Mrs Mary McGarvey, who, along with her sister, had been held at gunpoint from six o'clock that morning by two gunmen. He posted the letter and was turning to get back into his post van when a gunman appeared from the side of the house and, from a distance of 10 to 12 feet, fired two shots at him from a revolver. As the first shot hit, it drove the body armour into his chest. The second hit his right shoulder and then ricocheted into his body, passing through his lung and half an inch from his spine. He turned and ran up the laneway. A hail of gunfire followed him. He was shot twice more in his back, and four other bullets went through his Post Office jacket but missed his body. Sammy attempted to draw his personal protection weapon with his right hand, but the shot to his shoulder prevented him from being able to pull his gun out of its holster. With his left hand, he managed to grasp his weapon and return fire. In spite of being badly injured, and in spite of the stress and gravity of the moment, he succeeded in shooting one of his attackers. However, he knew that there was at least one other gunman pursuing him. Losing blood and in pain, Sammy knew that his life depended on being able to get into his van and drive clear of the ambush site. He successfully struggled back to his vehicle and managed to drive to Ballygawley police station, from where he was taken to the South Tyrone Hospital.) PS I didn't say it would cut crime or lower crime , what it would do is give law abiding citizens the possibility of defending themselves. We can have a discussion about it but for those concerned about people carrying firearms for defence dont be its not going to happen. Edited November 22, 2014 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Ordnance, that is the very point, it is easy to pick on specific examples, but in a broad scale is there any empirical evidence that suggests concealed carry reduces incidents of violent crime? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69chris Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 never mind concealed guns - have you seen how mental they drive their cars over there ?? id be more worried about that i think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 I'm with you Steppenwolf if someone tries to rob you out and about or especially in your home you should be allowed to use lethal force to stop them That's a big statement.so what's your history then.shot a few fox and the odd rabbit now your fully equipped to shoot a human.Well before you get any further into this fantasy go and visit one of the many mental trauma hospitals in the country that deal with the servicemen who have been on active service and have killed or seen killing.there are quite a few who's lives will never be quite the same again.and these boys were trained to do this.I have two daughters who are qualified mental health nurse's and one works with service personnel.so give it a little thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) Quote Ordnance, that is the very point, it is easy to pick on specific examples, but in a broad scale is there any empirical evidence that suggests concealed carry reduces incidents of violent crime? People can argue about it reducing crime maybe it does maybe it doesn't. I didn't say it reduces violent crime. It gives individuals the chance to defend themselves. Quote. That's a big statement.so what's your history then.shot a few fox and the odd rabbit now your fully equipped to shoot a human. If you were in a situation where it was you or them and possibly your family, and had a firearm for self defence would you use it. Or think I am just going to let them kill me in case killing someone might leave me mentally scarred. ? Are you a pacifist and don't believe in defending yourself and family if you had to. If so I respect that it up to the individual. Edited November 22, 2014 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 People can argue about it reducing crime maybe it does maybe it doesn't. I didn't say it reduces violent crime. It gives individuals the chance to defend themselves. I suspect that if evidence was available having concealed carry weapons would increase the number of deadly force incidents and would be counter productive. Just now we have the luxury of a relatively small number of crimes using a firearm. If you allow concealed carry then you have to afford that opportunity to everybody by and large, so massively increasing the number of guns in circulation, massively increasing the likelihood of gun crime and you also move the lowest common denominator to one that now includes a firearm. People will still be murdered and beaten just the same. The bad guys who want to mug/beat/rape you still want to do that and they have a gun too, if they think you have one they will just shoot you first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) Quote. People will still be murdered and beaten just the same. The bad guys who want to mug/beat/rape you still want to do that and they have a gun too, if they think you have one they will just shoot you first. Again a never said people would not still get raped and murdered. What it would do is give people the ability to defend themselves in some cases. If you don't think people should have that option that's fine. Quote massively increasing the number of guns in circulation, massively increasing the likelihood of gun crime and you also move the lowest common denominator to one that now includes a firearm. Follow that logic, and we should all give up our firearms, less firearms less chance of gun crime. Edited November 23, 2014 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 Quote. People will still be murdered and beaten just the same. The bad guys who want to mug/beat/rape you still want to do that and they have a gun too, if they think you have one they will just shoot you first. Again a never said people would not still get raped and murdered. What it would do is give people the ability to defend themselves in some cases. If you don't think people should have that option that's fine. Quote massively increasing the number of guns in circulation, massively increasing the likelihood of gun crime and you also move the lowest common denominator to one that now includes a firearm. Follow that logic, and we should all give up our firearms, less firearms less chance of gun crime. I think that giving people the ability to defend themselves with a firearm is disproportionate to the level of risk it creates, no more than that really. They could always have a stick with a big nail in it by the couch as they watch the telly and use that to defend themselves. Yes if you were to ban all guns it would reduce the likelihood of gun crime or at least help to reduce the level of accessibility to firearms for the bad guys, but again it is a balance of risk, currently our restriction on gun ownership strikes a reasonable balance. So we benefit from sporting participation, pest control, contribution to the economy, etc and that is balanced against the cost of maintaining a controlled regime and having restricted public accessibility to guns. It is a reasonable compromise I believe. I do recognise that there is a different backdrop in Northern Ireland compared to where I stay and that may well influence a different opinion. All just conjecture and opinion on my part, that is why I asked if there were actually any empirical statistics to support a different point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) Quote. I asked if there were actually any empirical statistics to support a different point of view. The problem is I am sure I could find statistics to show that people carrying firearms for self defence would lower crime. And I could also find statistics to show that was not the case. lies damn lies statistics. I don't feel the need to carry or have a firearm for self defence, but I have an issue being told by politicians that have armed guards that I can't have that option. Edited November 23, 2014 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 Quote. I asked if there were actually any empirical statistics to support a different point of view. The problem is I am sure I could find statistics to show that people carrying firearms for self defence would lower crime. And I could also find statistics to show that was not the case. lies damn lies statistics. I don't feel the need to carry or have a firearm for self defence, but I have an issue being told by politicians that have armed guards that I can't have that option. I would expect that they perhaps have rather more reason to believe someone would want to do them in than you do, unless you claim public expenses for a duck house in your pond and to clean your moat, but I understand your point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 you claim public expenses for a duck house in your pond and to clean your moat. Good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.