dangerous or not??

[wymberley]

But they don't have the same energy do they? Speed is largely dictated by the charge at short range and the 6 is carrying more kinetic energy than the 9 surely?

If you're referring to Post # 24, yes it would be but it was not No 6 but 6.5 given in the example and the figures were taken at face value when calculating the ED. However, you may well be perfectly correct. I'm having trouble here as the splint on my finger keeps hitting keys I do not mean to press and I'm making numerous typing errors. Whereas I've checked Post #24 and it is correct, I have now had a look at the No 9 shot and taking into account I might well have made input errors, the 1.2 ft/lbs given could well be somewhat ambitious whereas that given for the No 6.5 is valid as that information was already available. Accepting the possibility of mistakes, given the same MV (1400) as that which gives the 6.5 1.2 at 40 yards, then the 9 would be 1.0 at the 20 yards, requiring some c1750 to match the 1.2 figure.

Edited September 29, 2015 by wymberley

[dougall]

9/10 shot was used years ago for rats..and typically at @ 10 yards..not just for killing the rats but also not to damage barns/buildings..More recently they are almost exclusively for skeet or clays at 16 yards...would I use them on live game?hell no.Sure at @ 2 foot any cartridge would kill a horse..........but 20 yard rabbits......game birds.........give me a break... how many shots are genuinely taken at 20 yards or under..if anyone reading this thinks 9 shot is the right choice when going shooting please don't.There seems to be a real uptick in interest in 410s and if dropping to 9s is the only way to fill in your pattern then I would question both the selection of the tool and the load.......I have nothing against 410s,can be cracking fun but reading through this topic,with 9s promoted for rabbits and 7s for hares....for me just highlights its limitations and appropriateness for taking most quarry.

[kent]

410 is fine with small shot as it's biggest fault is gaps if the energy is there at the max range then it will actually kill better

Once the energy fails size 5 might retain energy but with gaps yhat can make a clean shot a matter of luck

[Stonepark]

Eley Diary (available for anyone to look at) gives velocities and pellet energy for both standard game cartridges (MV 1275ft/sec, observed velocity 1070ft/sec) and high power game cartridges (MV of 1325ft/sec, observed velocity 1120ft/sec), the MV of 410 14g Gamebore load is 1250ft/sec so close enough to standard not to worry too much, Eley Extralong is 1300ft/sec MV.

 

At 20 yards, Eley quotes a speed of 840ft/sec(1.18ftlbs) in shot size 9 for standard game cartridges and this is the figure I have used. Remember a No 9 pellet is 2.mm whereas a number

6.5 pellet is 2.5mm, being 0.75 and 1.43 grains respectively. This is not No 12 shot we are talking about, No 9 still has a significant mass and size.

 

No one is promoting 9's as a long range rabbit load but for 20 yards and under they will do the job if necessary, just as a duck/pheasant cartridge will kill a goose at a sensible distance.

 

For rabbits that are sitting tight and shooting them as they bolt at your feet, this is within the capabilities of the cartridge, the load will kill the rabbit at close range without a problem.

 

Would I recommend going out after rabbits with 9's if I had another alternative, no I wouldn't, but it is a appropriate cartridge when used within it's limits and those limits are understood.

[deadeye18]

Eley Diary (available for anyone to look at) gives velocities and pellet energy for both standard game cartridges (MV 1275ft/sec, observed velocity 1070ft/sec) and high power game cartridges (MV of 1325ft/sec, observed velocity 1120ft/sec), the MV of 410 14g Gamebore load is 1250ft/sec so close enough to standard not to worry too much, Eley Extralong is 1300ft/sec MV.

 

At 20 yards, Eley quotes a speed of 840ft/sec(1.18ftlbs) in shot size 9 for standard game cartridges and this is the figure I have used. Remember a No 9 pellet is 2.mm whereas a number

6.5 pellet is 2.5mm, being 0.75 and 1.43 grains respectively. This is not No 12 shot we are talking about, No 9 still has a significant mass and size.

 

No one is promoting 9's as a long range rabbit load but for 20 yards and under they will do the job if necessary, just as a duck/pheasant cartridge will kill a goose at a sensible distance.

 

For rabbits that are sitting tight and shooting them as they bolt at your feet, this is within the capabilities of the cartridge, the load will kill the rabbit at close range without a problem.

 

Would I recommend going out after rabbits with 9's if I had another alternative, no I wouldn't, but it is a appropriate cartridge when used within it's limits and those limits are understood.

well said and nicely put.looked at the inside of the cartridge last night and the flash hole looked mostly clear apart from a little crud but then again the whole case was full of fouling.its graced the bin wagon now.

[wymberley]

Eley Diary (available for anyone to look at) gives velocities and pellet energy for both standard game cartridges (MV 1275ft/sec, observed velocity 1070ft/sec) and high power game cartridges (MV of 1325ft/sec, observed velocity 1120ft/sec), the MV of 410 14g Gamebore load is 1250ft/sec so close enough to standard not to worry too much, Eley Extralong is 1300ft/sec MV.

 

At 20 yards, Eley quotes a speed of 840ft/sec(1.18ftlbs) in shot size 9 for standard game cartridges and this is the figure I have used. Remember a No 9 pellet is 2.mm whereas a number

6.5 pellet is 2.5mm, being 0.75 and 1.43 grains respectively. This is not No 12 shot we are talking about, No 9 still has a significant mass and size.

 

 

It very much depends on who you believe. The Eley Diary figures have remained unchanged for eons - Gough Thomas was quoting the same ones as currently detailed therein in his 'Shotguns and Cartridges' of 1963. I'm reasonably certain that if one went to the trouble of converting the Burrard tables from his 1050 and 1100 to the Eley 1070 and 1120 figures the results would be virtually identical - Burrard No 9 at 1050 gives 828, just below the Eley 1070 - 840. Even then, Burrard specifies a necessary MV of 1369 which is way over the Eley 1275 for the 1070. It would therefore appear that Eley's Diary is firmly locked into the earliy 20th century. At least their existing web-site is somewhat more current. With a V1 MV of325 m/s (1067 our money) the 410 No9 will give 0.9 ft/lbs at the 20 yards. Can't be sure about the Gamebore 14 gram offering as although the MV is given at 1350 on their web-site, it is perhaps unfortunate that their sales staff do not know what 'V' figure that relates to. Assuming it's V0, then at 20 yards 1.0 ft/lbs can be expected.

 

All figures other than those with a specified source are from the Sierra Suite. It is perhaps worth noting that the same calculations when cross referenced from those of the Ballistic Research Laboratory (BRL) reflect that the BRL figures are even less generous.

[Stonepark]

It very much depends on who you believe. The Eley Diary figures have remained unchanged for eons - Gough Thomas was quoting the same ones as currently detailed therein in his 'Shotguns and Cartridges' of 1963. I'm reasonably certain that if one went to the trouble of converting the Burrard tables from his 1050 and 1100 to the Eley 1070 and 1120 figures the results would be virtually identical - Burrard No 9 at 1050 gives 828, just below the Eley 1070 - 840. Even then, Burrard specifies a necessary MV of 1369 which is way over the Eley 1275 for the 1070. It would therefore appear that Eley's Diary is firmly locked into the earliy 20th century. At least their existing web-site is somewhat more current. With a V1 MV of325 m/s (1067 our money) the 410 No9 will give 0.9 ft/lbs at the 20 yards. Can't be sure about the Gamebore 14 gram offering as although the MV is given at 1350 on their web-site, it is perhaps unfortunate that their sales staff do not know what 'V' figure that relates to. Assuming it's V0, then at 20 yards 1.0 ft/lbs can be expected.

 

All figures other than those with a specified source are from the Sierra Suite. It is perhaps worth noting that the same calculations when cross referenced from those of the Ballistic Research Laboratory (BRL) reflect that the BRL figures are even less generous.

 

I can't ever recall the Eley data changing within the diaries, certainly in the last 25 years and contrary to what manufacturers would have us believe, whilst on average we may have had small increases in velocity, really the big move was black powder to smokeless and most change has been incremental since then, I have my own excel tables for lead, shot and bismuth but as a check, I also have an American pdf of tables (originally printed in Shotgun Sports Magazine which provides data that is very similar to what Eley quotes for for clay loads, and a programme called Shotgun Sim by Black Bart Software where I can play about with the data and loads at will (but again american sizes) and isn't perfect but does all the calculations at touch of a button.

 

With regards Eley cartridges, 325 (1060), i believe is observed at some where about 3-5 yards as there is definitely a super sonic crack off the cartridges that I use, and you don't get that below 1125ish. I will try and put some over my chrono and see if i can get a reading in next day or two.

[wymberley]

 

I can't ever recall the Eley data changing within the diaries, certainly in the last 25 years and contrary to what manufacturers would have us believe, whilst on average we may have had small increases in velocity, really the big move was black powder to smokeless and most change has been incremental since then, I have my own excel tables for lead, shot and bismuth but as a check, I also have an American pdf of tables (originally printed in Shotgun Sports Magazine which provides data that is very similar to what Eley quotes for for clay loads, and a programme called Shotgun Sim by Black Bart Software where I can play about with the data and loads at will (but again american sizes) and isn't perfect but does all the calculations at touch of a button.

 

With regards Eley cartridges, 325 (1060), i believe is observed at some where about 3-5 yards as there is definitely a super sonic crack off the cartridges that I use, and you don't get that below 1125ish. I will try and put some over my chrono and see if i can get a reading in next day or two.

Yep, it's close. V0 of 1109 against 1116 in theory.