How to get a FAC?

[Danoi99]

Jeez, I think there are some reckless burks in this world of ours. I've had some experience of shooting rifles in the past, but more recently (last 5 years) I've been bitten by the clay pigeon bug, and also the real blighters.

 

I read various gun publications and have found myself wanting a rifle. I'm going back to basics and have ordered a HW80k .22 FAC (only around 20ft lbs max), but I haven't gone for FAC power so that I can clip a squirrel in the shoulder and still nail him !!

 

You shouldn't be shooting any beast unless you can put a shot schmack into the kill zone. I'm all for protecting our rights to enter into shooting, but why shouldn't there be some reasonable framework for ensuring that the potential applicant has, at the very least, had some experience with smaller cals before jumping straight onto a .308? (and blowing deer legs off)

 

popcorn at the ready !! To be honest, I've seen some ridiculous behaviour from some clay shooters (negligent discharges etc) at a very safe, well run shoot. Many people who lack fundamental skills are being allowed to buy shotguns..........sod letting them get Steyr counter sniper rifles eh?

 

We'll all be moaning when some issuing force gives CF to some wally that shoots his neighbours knackers off by accident......and it hits the press......and the anti mob get stuck into it.......and they leave us with sub 12ft lb air rifles (with a licence like our Scottish friends).

[robbiep]

Jeez, I think there are some reckless burks in this world of ours. I've had some experience of shooting rifles in the past, but more recently (last 5 years) I've been bitten by the clay pigeon bug, and also the real blighters.

 

.....

 

We'll all be moaning when some issuing force gives CF to some wally that shoots his neighbours knackers off by accident......and it hits the press......and the anti mob get stuck into it.......and they leave us with sub 12ft lb air rifles (with a licence like our Scottish friends).

 

 

You say you've seen unsafe gun handling at clay grounds.

However, can you say the same for rifle ranges ?

 

I've been to plenty of both, and any unsafe practices with anything get stamped on incredibly quickly.

In addition, Mr. wally you refer to has to show 'good reason' to get his CF rifle.

 

Finally, anyone shooting at a ground who is unsafe, it should be dealt with properly, instantly. If you say you're regularly seeing "ridiculous behaviour from some clay shooters (negligent discharges etc) at a very safe, well run shoot" then it is neither a safe, nor well run, shoot.

[Danoi99]

Here we go.

 

1. The only ranges I've been to were military. So no to that one.

 

2.The shoot is very well ran by a CPSA coach. Yes he does deal with things promptly, but do you expect him to stand behind every shooter on every stand? Get real mate....you're just being pedantic.

 

And I never said that I'd regularly witnessed ridiculous behaviour, please read my post again mate. I was referring to some numptys who were not regulars at this shoot, pointing guns in unsafe directions, and loosing of a shot into the floor whilst stood in the stand......they laughed, I reported the matter....they have never been seen since. I'm not gonna go into every tale of woe.....but others on this forum were there and will probably jump in on this.

 

They too will have witnessed the way in which the team at our local ground swiftly deals with idiots.

 

The fact of the matter is, there are some thoroughly undesirables out there who, on any given Sunday, can swan around with a shotgun over their shoulder cuz their mates got a SGC. There are also people out their with shotguns/ rifles etc who are deemed as "suitable" by the Police because they have a clean (ish) record.........or they just never got caught !!! FACT.

 

Now I'm not saying that they are all unsafe or dangerous, I myself have a chequered past, which the police are well aware of. I digress.

 

It's only my opinion..........I don't think inexperienced shooters should jump straight up to larger calibre rifles until they can show that they are safe and competent. I would hope that an experienced FEO could ascertain that little gem somehow.

 

I have permission to shoot on land where I frequently see deer, and I'm allowed to shoot them once I get the right rifle (farmer has no problem) but the last rifle I shot was an SA80, and I don't think I should bang straight into a .243 without getting my mojo back.

 

What's wrong with having a safe and responsible attitude to shooting?

 

(why does it feel like yer lighting a fuse when you press the POST button?)

 

Publish and be damned I say.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Danoi99

[robbiep]

I just think you're making huge, sweeping generalisations, with minimal real evidence to back it up.

 

In addition to which, you've failed to answer my point about the wallies wanting CF rifles : the fact that they MUST show 'good reason' for any Section 1 certification. No good reason = no FAC.

An idiot who ignores safe shooting practices is as unsafe with a 22RF as one with a .308.

 

Next, you state that "there are some thoroughly undesirables out there who, on any given Sunday, can swan around with a shotgun over their shoulder cuz their mates got a SGC". Again, total nonsense.

Most clubs do not have an exemption certificate (section 11 of the Act, possibly ?) so non-cert holders 'swanning around with shotguns over their shoulders' just does not happen.

Those clubs that do have an exemption to allow non-members/non ticket holders to shoot insist that the visitor is directly under 1-to-1 supervision at all times, and if anything unsafe was going on, then that person's membership would be under threat, or the visitor would be kicked out, and bluntly told that they would not be welcome back there.

If you're going away from clubs and onto commercial clay grounds, then, once again, they usually insist on either SGC holders, or, for non-holders, them having a lesson with an instructor before being allowed to go out on the ground. And even while out on the ground shooting, then they must remain under direct supervision by a SGC holder at all times.

Again, unsafe practices = membership card of the SGC holder being revoked.

 

All these places, whether clubs or commercial grounds, have insurance in place. None of them want an accident to happen. So ANY unsafe gun handling is hammered down on, instantly. If you are going to places with unsafe gun handling, you either make sure it is dealt with, or YOU deal with it. If it continues, then I suggest you have a word with somebody more senior.

As for rifle ranges, (which you admit you've no experience of since being in the military), they work on even tighter principles. Probationary members (even those who may have FAC already) are subject to 1-1 supervision at all times on the firing point. Absolutely anyone can (and should !) call out 'stop, stop, stop' on seeing ANY unsafe gun handling or person in a danger area, at which point the RCO will deal with the matter from then on.

 

As I say, you seem to be making sweeping generalisations. If you know of places where unsafe gun handling / unsafe practices seem to regularly happen, then I suggest you have a quiet (or not so quiet) word with someone who is in charge. If that fails to elicit a change, or further 'new' people there don't seem to have been properly briefed and reminded of safety, then for your own (and everyone else's) safety, I suggest you name the places publicly, and avoid those places in future.

 

Finally, if you can show that grounds (especially those that do NOT have an exemption certificate) are allowing non-SGC holders to 'swan around' with shotguns as you have suggested, then it's time YOU took responsibility, and reported the matter ... to the police. Keeping your mouth shut makes you as culpable as the ground is.

[Scully]

Here we go.

 

1. The only ranges I've been to were military. So no to that one.

 

2.The shoot is very well ran by a CPSA coach. Yes he does deal with things promptly, but do you expect him to stand behind every shooter on every stand? Get real mate....you're just being pedantic.

 

And I never said that I'd regularly witnessed ridiculous behaviour, please read my post again mate. I was referring to some numptys who were not regulars at this shoot, pointing guns in unsafe directions, and loosing of a shot into the floor whilst stood in the stand......they laughed, I reported the matter....they have never been seen since. I'm not gonna go into every tale of woe.....but others on this forum were there and will probably jump in on this.

 

They too will have witnessed the way in which the team at our local ground swiftly deals with idiots.

 

The fact of the matter is, there are some thoroughly undesirables out there who, on any given Sunday, can swan around with a shotgun over their shoulder cuz their mates got a SGC. There are also people out their with shotguns/ rifles etc who are deemed as "suitable" by the Police because they have a clean (ish) record.........or they just never got caught !!! FACT.

 

Now I'm not saying that they are all unsafe or dangerous, I myself have a chequered past, which the police are well aware of. I digress.

 

It's only my opinion..........I don't think inexperienced shooters should jump straight up to larger calibre rifles until they can show that they are safe and competent. I would hope that an experienced FEO could ascertain that little gem somehow.

 

I have permission to shoot on land where I frequently see deer, and I'm allowed to shoot them once I get the right rifle (farmer has no problem) but the last rifle I shot was an SA80, and I don't think I should bang straight into a .243 without getting my mojo back.

 

What's wrong with having a safe and responsible attitude to shooting?

 

(why does it feel like yer lighting a fuse when you press the POST button?)

 

Publish and be damned I say.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a 'safe and responsible attitude to shooting', but from what I can gather it is already prevalent within UK firearms owners ( the statistics are there to prove it ) and have to agree in general with the post of RobbieP in response to yours.

[Danoi99]

It's not a huge sweeping generalisation at all. You both know damn well that there ARE people attending clay shoots who do not themselves have a SGC. And why do you keep telling me things I already know ?

 

1. Of course a .22rf is dangerous if used incorrectly.....you're not inventing the wheel with that peach.

 

2. Do you honestly believe that every shooter who turns up at a clay shoot is asked to produce their cert before being allowed to shoot a round? You're off your box mate. I've shot compact sporting at a CLA game fair...wasn't asked to produce SGC..........Ian Colleys in Glos (a well respected and safe ground) shot 2 rounds.....wasn't asked to produce SGC...........there are a number of others but I'm getting bored, in fact the only ground that ever asked if was being accompanied/ or current SGC holder is the place I shoot now ! FACT. If you look the part......Musto shooting jacket......Muckboots.....Range Rover.....CENS baseball cap......you will, on quite a few grounds, not be asked for your cert.

 

3.Why do you insist on fabricating a load of toss into my original post? Is it an attempt to make you ramblings more valid? I can tell you now sunshine, it aint working.

 

I never once said that I know of MANY grounds where I see unsafe practices.......I have indeed witnessed some numptys in my time, and as I explained......they were dealt with. You are just trying to start some kind of argument.

You're getting hot and bothered over nothing, and you're harping on about regulations...and "I suggest that you report the matter blah blah blah " GET REAL !!!

 

4. There ARE people plodding around with shotguns, with their mate who has the cert, shooting safely no doubt......I started out like that, many of us did. But I went on to apply for my SGC and got it, recently applied for FAC (shotgun & .22 air rifle, my choice) I got that too. But I can tell you now........I've seen a guy that I know, an absolute lunatic who I wouldn't trust with an elastic band, out having a swan round with a shotgun over his rounded shoulder (which by the way, I think looks awful), he has had a number of dealings with Police for violent offences. There's no way on earth he would get a SGC, not a chance. Now he's not a prohibited person because he's not been in prison (yet) Now here's the cruncher.......I watched him shoot a stand and he hit some good birds, followed all the rules, shot safely, put his empties in the bin, his gun was put back in his slip before he took over the buttons, good etiquette all round.

He's still an undesirable !!!!!

 

5. I said I'd been to military ranges, I didn't say I was "in the military".....you need to pay attention and stop inventing/ assuming things.

 

I've had enough of this rubbish now. You're living in a dream world where everyone shoots safely, and all ranges and clay grounds follow the rules to the letter. A land where every clay shooter who visits a new but well established ground, upon entering the container, hut, club house promptly enquires as to whether or not the owner is in possession of an exemption certificate, and if not, could you give me proof that all who shoot here today are current SGC holders? Because if I find out that there are any non cert holding undesirables swanning about with DT10's resting over their hunchbacks....I'll be phoning the filth and dropping you right in the dogs mess !!!

 

You must be so blinkered to the truth of shooting in the UK. Only when one of these undesirable hunchbacks pumps 28 grams of lead into some poor **** foot (accidentally) or sends a .22rf through a hedge into a vicars backside, sending the press wild with the antis baying for blood, and the next wannbe prime minister scouring the country for votes......ending in a super clamp down on all things that go bang will people like you come out of the woodwork with your belated arguments/ suggestions for safer gun ownership.

 

The gun law is strict in the UK.......but's absolutely full of holes, and you know that it's true.

 

So you can come back at me with your essay length post, full of wonderful facts about gun law, range protocols and whatever else tickles your fancy.......it won't change the truth !!

 

Good day.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Danoi99

[Danoi99]

Apologies to the OP, it's gone off on a tangent again. Won't be responding further to this thread,

 

ATB

[Scully]

Why on earth do people keep on insisting there is a problem with the safety of UK shooters? If there is a problem then wouldn't licensing authorities be insisting that a compulsory training scheme be undertaken prior to grant, and our shooting organisations tripping over themselves to charge a fee to run such schemes?

Show me the statistics to back up your claims.

As for undesirables, it isn't your decision to make as to who is or isn't desirable; that is what the licensing process is for. If you know of anyone who is posing a risk to the safety of the general public then report it.

[robbiep]

It's not a huge sweeping generalisation at all. You both know damn well that there ARE people attending clay shoots who do not themselves have a SGC. And why do you keep telling me things I already know ?

 

1. Of course a .22rf is dangerous if used incorrectly.....you're not inventing the wheel with that peach.

 

2. Do you honestly believe that every shooter who turns up at a clay shoot is asked to produce their cert before being allowed to shoot a round? You're off your box mate. I've shot compact sporting at a CLA game fair...wasn't asked to produce SGC..........Ian Colleys in Glos (a well respected and safe ground) shot 2 rounds.....wasn't asked to produce SGC...........there are a number of others but I'm getting bored, in fact the only ground that ever asked if was being accompanied/ or current SGC holder is the place I shoot now ! FACT. If you look the part......Musto shooting jacket......Muckboots.....Range Rover.....CENS baseball cap......you will, on quite a few grounds, not be asked for your cert.

 

3.Why do you insist on fabricating a load of toss into my original post? Is it an attempt to make you ramblings more valid? I can tell you now sunshine, it aint working.

 

I never once said that I know of MANY grounds where I see unsafe practices.......I have indeed witnessed some numptys in my time, and as I explained......they were dealt with. You are just trying to start some kind of argument.

You're getting hot and bothered over nothing, and you're harping on about regulations...and "I suggest that you report the matter blah blah blah " GET REAL !!!

 

4. There ARE people plodding around with shotguns, with their mate who has the cert, shooting safely no doubt......I started out like that, many of us did. But I went on to apply for my SGC and got it, recently applied for FAC (shotgun & .22 air rifle, my choice) I got that too. But I can tell you now........I've seen a guy that I know, an absolute lunatic who I wouldn't trust with an elastic band, out having a swan round with a shotgun over his rounded shoulder (which by the way, I think looks awful), he has had a number of dealings with Police for violent offences. There's no way on earth he would get a SGC, not a chance. Now he's not a prohibited person because he's not been in prison (yet) Now here's the cruncher.......I watched him shoot a stand and he hit some good birds, followed all the rules, shot safely, put his empties in the bin, his gun was put back in his slip before he took over the buttons, good etiquette all round.

He's still an undesirable !!!!!

 

5. I said I'd been to military ranges, I didn't say I was "in the military".....you need to pay attention and stop inventing/ assuming things.

 

I've had enough of this rubbish now. You're living in a dream world where everyone shoots safely, and all ranges and clay grounds follow the rules to the letter. A land where every clay shooter who visits a new but well established ground, upon entering the container, hut, club house promptly enquires as to whether or not the owner is in possession of an exemption certificate, and if not, could you give me proof that all who shoot here today are current SGC holders? Because if I find out that there are any non cert holding undesirables swanning about with DT10's resting over their hunchbacks....I'll be phoning the filth and dropping you right in the dogs mess !!!

 

You must be so blinkered to the truth of shooting in the UK. Only when one of these undesirable hunchbacks pumps 28 grams of lead into some poor **** foot (accidentally) or sends a .22rf through a hedge into a vicars backside, sending the press wild with the antis baying for blood, and the next wannbe prime minister scouring the country for votes......ending in a super clamp down on all things that go bang will people like you come out of the woodwork with your belated arguments/ suggestions for safer gun ownership.

 

The gun law is strict in the UK.......but's absolutely full of holes, and you know that it's true.

 

So you can come back at me with your essay length post, full of wonderful facts about gun law, range protocols and whatever else tickles your fancy.......it won't change the truth !!

 

Good day.

 

You've gone from wanting people getting large CF rifles to having training, to the risk of 'undesirables' doing the same with shotguns.

Try making a point and backing it up, rather than swanning off on a tangent.

You appear to have a large chip on your shoulder. Hating all those with their posh Range Rovers and Musto jackets, and viewing some (at least) of them as 'undesirable'. Even if the police do NOT view them as such, you are for more an 'expert' than the police ever could be.

 

As I (and Scully) have said, if you know of people who are a danger to the public, report it to the police, or quit spouting nonsense.

 

You seem to have this desire to be the centre of attention, almost wanting your posts to be controversial (references to lighting the blue touch paper, popcorn, etc.)

However, making carefully reasoned posts which actually have a tiny little bit of evidence to back them up might result in you being taken a little bit more seriously.

[neutron619]

Why on earth do people keep on insisting there is a problem with the safety of UK shooters? If there is a problem then wouldn't licensing authorities be insisting that a compulsory training scheme be undertaken prior to grant, and our shooting organisations tripping over themselves to charge a fee to run such schemes?

Show me the statistics to back up your claims.

As for undesirables, it isn't your decision to make as to who is or isn't desirable; that is what the licensing process is for. If you know of anyone who is posing a risk to the safety of the general public then report it.

 

Quite.

 

As one of those "evil" people who decided that they wanted to shoot deer (to eat) and immediately requested, and was granted, an FAC for a deer rifle without having to learn how to handle a smaller calibre rifle in an equally safe manner, I think I'm slightly offended at the insinuation that I and other "new" stalkers / shooters are inherently unsafe. It takes very little brain power to learn how to handle a rifle safely and only a little more to consistently apply the principles learnt when using said rifle in future - which is not to say of course that I'm cavalier about safe handling, only that the principles are simple.

 

If I ever mishandle my rifle or have an accident with it, I fully expect to face the consequences. However, not being a particularly stupid person, if I thought that I was putting myself or others at risk by owning and using my rifle, I wouldn't pick it up and would probably arrange not to own it, in much the same way that I wouldn't pick up a chainsaw and attempt to fell trees, having never been shown how to manage the risks involved correctly.

 

Finally, if I, after a handful of shots at a DSC1 training day, can manage to shoot a 1" group in the DSC1 test itself without any particular difficulty, then I'm sure anyone with sufficient patience to take the shots properly can manage it and therefore to stalk deer at reasonable ranges. Shooting a centre fire rifle requires attention and care, but it is not inherently difficult, in the way that the calculations involved in structural engineering or the performance of heart surgery are difficult.

 

Shot placement is, of course, hugely important and certainly harder to achieve in "field conditions", but even the largest .30 / .300 cartridges that the police will generally sign off for deer produce manageable recoil and are not likely to cause the average user difficulties in that respect. I have not found it difficult to take the shots presented to me, or to decide that a shot I might have taken was beyond my skill and therefore not to be attempted.

 

It is for these reasons that I wish people would stop trying to place (large) centre fire calibres on some sort of pedestal, as a sort of badge to be "earnt". They are the appropriate tool for a particular classification of quarry and should be looked at no differently to the way a Phillips screwdriver is viewed in relation to the kind of screws for which it was designed.

Edited January 4, 2016 by neutron619

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Get back to work!

[neutron619]

Get back to work!

 

Work??? What is this "work" you speak of!?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

It is the thing that pays for the family and your shooting!!!!!!!