Want to reload different non toxic than steel for the 10.

[TONY R]

Because I don't know, is steel F shot 0.22 in dia. with 39 pellets/oz?

 

Many thanks.

YES! F is .22 or 5.59MM and 39 to the oz, 4s are .13 or 3.25MM and 115 to the oz. .

Edited August 10, 2016 by TONY R

[wymberley]

YES! F is .22 or 5.59MM and 39 to the oz, 4s are .13 or 3.25MM and 115 to the oz. .

Many thanks. As I'm utterly bored, I've just been fiddling and re your Post #23 above, I make the HW figure 119 yards, ie, the same as you. But that for the F steel comes in at 203. The equivalent to the HW is whatever size steel pellet a 0.170" is (USA 'B') which comes in at121 yards for the 1.5" penetration.

[motty]

I have put a lot of 3.8mm HW13 through a 0.655 Terror with no issues.

[motty]

Richie, I would imagine you paid over the odds for powershot.

[TONY R]

Many thanks. As I'm utterly bored, I've just been fiddling and re your Post #23 above, I make the HW figure 119 yards, ie, the same as you. But that for the F steel comes in at 203. The equivalent to the HW is whatever size steel pellet a 0.170" is (USA 'B') which comes in at121 yards for the 1.5" penetration.

 

Many thanks. As I'm utterly bored, I've just been fiddling and re your Post #23 above, I make the HW figure 119 yards, ie, the same as you. But that for the F steel comes in at 203. The equivalent to the HW is whatever size steel pellet a 0.170" is (USA 'B') which comes in at121 yards for the 1.5" penetration.

Your going to have to run that past me real slow mate, its nearly midnight im in a tent on the west coast of scotland on a motorbike tour with my 13 vyear old son, Im very limitted to what i can acces re my paperwork on this phone.

But i never tire of Waterfowl loads so What i have kind of understood given the late hour etc, is you touched on steel Bs ... Good call it acctualy does the deed on paper at leadst at 60 yards and acctualy stacks up real good against HW 13 etc, but its still down on numbers of pellets, but at 60 which is realistic range for the average albert and his son to reliably kill Geese, Steel works, so in a way why use anything else you cant get deader than dead.

Im not knocking HW13 vheck i just showed why it is incredible but relly when its up against TSS it pails into near insignificance tss 9s hit like HW6s seriously TSS is a different beast altogether.

But B steel YES a good call on your part there its where the numbers for steel start to look interesting, well..... At 60 yards anyway.

And realisticly beyond 60 is it that big a deal? .....Well Maybe it depends what you want from a load, But in the real world cold light of day its nice to have a bit in reserve i like an edge. But if you really need it or not is very much a moot point indeed.

Edited August 10, 2016 by TONY R

[TONY R]

I have some 4mm TSS - test fired a 50g load at 65 yards at a pattern paper stuck onto some 18mm OPG board.

 

Shot penetrated the board fully at 65 yards...............

Im being serious now for once you need to be carefull as i am sure you apreciate anyway with 4mm TSS its pretty dangerous stuff, They wreck coyotes with this stuff dont know what speed your load was but im guessing at 65 it was only doing about 550 fps so think about 18mm ply at that range its got some FTlbs being delivered there per pellet.

[motty]

This is my take on HW13 i know what it can do it bears no mystery for me i have used it and prior to TSS i felt it was good, Now not so much TSS9s will perform like 6 HW13 5 TSS is......Well its something else altogether.

 

So here is my take on HW13 in 4s and a model to illustrate its potential performance for those who dont know on here. .

 

Well If you took A KPY generated impression on two 28gram loads one of steel the other one HW13 in no 4 shot both on 1410fps at 9ft, you would need Steel Fshot to out penatrate HW13s no4s the F steel would be good for 1.5 inch into balistics gell at 108.9 yards. HW13 4s will make 103.5 yards 39 pellets for the steel and 115 for the 4 HW13.

 

there is no quesstion HW13 will penatrate to over 100 yards

 

Now look at your 2 18th oz HW13 load of 4s in your ten, 245 pellets and ill give you 1410fps to keep it simple you will probably be at least 70fps under that though in reality, but just for debate .

 

And again for debate ill give you 70% of those pellets at 60 yards. my new jebs delivers 70% at 60 with 9 TSS who knows maybe you got one i dont know. Anyway you get 172 pellets again in giving you to 0.5 pellet.

 

so moving on to steel a 1.5 oz load of F steel 65 pellets at 60 yards lets say it manages 54% feasable as i do think HW shot holds a slightly better pattern and can certainly run more choke so lets call the steel load 54% at 60 yards, so we are talking 35 pellets.

 

OK with HW13 we got technicaly more still lethal pellets, but with the steel Fs they are out penatrating HW13 have far bigger wound chanel lots more cold air coming in fast blood loss etc, but we only just got about five yards of more penatration re range and the BAD news here we only have 35 pellets compared to your 172 pellets. now thats one huge huge advantage. How can that ever be beated by steel. ? Well simple answer it cant.

I find this really hard to follow.

[Old farrier]

Hi

This is really interesting stuff 😊

 

So what powders are you using to get these sort of results

And can a mere mortal who can't get aliant steel get anywhere near it

 

And just to throw another log on the fire

Anyone tried steel substitute with black powder

 

Many thanks

Of

[wymberley]

 

Your going to have to run that past me real slow mate, its nearly midnight im in a tent on the west coast of scotland on a motorbike tour with my 13 vyear old son, Im very limitted to what i can acces re my paperwork on this phone.

But i never tire of Waterfowl loads so What i have kind of understood given the late hour etc, is you touched on steel Bs ... Good call it acctualy does the deed on paper at leadst at 60 yards and acctualy stacks up real good against HW 13 etc, but its still down on numbers of pellets, but at 60 which is realistic range for the average albert and his son to reliably kill Geese, Steel works, so in a way why use anything else you cant get deader than dead.

Im not knocking HW13 vheck i just showed why it is incredible but relly when its up against TSS it pails into near insignificance tss 9s hit like HW6s seriously TSS is a different beast altogether.

But B steel YES a good call on your part there its where the numbers for steel start to look interesting, well..... At 60 yards anyway.

And realisticly beyond 60 is it that big a deal? .....Well Maybe it depends what you want from a load, But in the real world cold light of day its nice to have a bit in reserve i like an edge. But if you really need it or not is very much a moot point indeed.

Hope you and the lad enjoy your break - you're a couple of weeks ahead of me.

 

Can't do wildfowl now so don't use steel. It's just that I read your post and the F size distance/penetration quoted didn't seem right - and I was bored. It's probably worth saying that the figures given are simply penetration into gelatin. As the threshold requirement has not been taken into account, it will not equate to quarry species.

[Guest cookoff013]

Hi

This is really interesting stuff

 

So what powders are you using to get these sort of results

And can a mere mortal who can't get aliant steel get anywhere near it

 

And just to throw another log on the fire

Anyone tried steel substitute with black powder

 

Many thanks

Of

 

niceshot is labelled as a lead replacement in reloading, so i cant see why it wont work with blackpowder or its substitutes. it replaces lead by volume as it is slightly less dense than lead. it would be my first port of call.

whay do i always state "niceshot?"

it was designed to be a nontoxic equivalent to lead, a direct replacement, lead components, nontoxic shot.

i would say, what you dont spend on specialist powder and wads, you will spend on shot. so its on a par with super steel homeloads (costs etc). just dont go pushing it 1500fps, stick to reality.

edit in red.

Edited August 11, 2016 by cookoff013

[Richie10]

Richie, I would imagine you paid over the odds for powershot.

 

No doubt, but I thought I would give it a go. I don't get up much on the Wash so won't go through a huge amount.

 

I would have thought it would still be as expensive getting it from the US with shipping and import duty.

 

Not sure how I could get it any cheaper.

[motty]

A 10lb bag of Hw13 costs approx £200 including shipping.

[Old farrier]

 

niceshot is labelled as a lead replacement in reloading, so i cant see why it wont work with blackpowder or its substitutes. it replaces lead by volume as it is slightly less dense than lead. it would be my first port of call.

whay do i always state "niceshot?"

it was designed to be a nontoxic equivalent to lead, a direct replacement, lead components, nontoxic shot.

i would say, what you dont spend on specialist powder and wads, you will spend on shot. so its on a par with super steel homeloads (costs etc). just dont go pushing it 1500fps, stick to reality.

edit in red.

Many thanks for your reply

All the best

Of

[shakin stevens]

Many thanks for your reply

All the best

Of

I've been using nice shot in my single 4b with no problems, and on black powder, tpph powder from cranks, think this powder was used in the proof house at one point.

[TONY R]

TPPH we used to call it tower prof powder TPPH Tower prof powder fom the prof house.

I ran steel at one bit through a cheapo Zoli 8 bore muzle loader my bigest bored gun these days, Its a toy realy but it still works,

why dont you and OF use copper i t ideal for front loaders or older guns it cheapish only downside for your 4 is only in 3.5mm you need 4.2 4.5 or i would. Try and find some big copper contact SIARM they might be able to get some. Its worth a try.

Im not a punt gunner so sorry if im way off the mark, but do punts mostly shoot ducks and english 2s wont they be good enough even for longish shots. what size do punts generaly run? I dont KNOW!>

[TONY R]

Hope you and the lad enjoy your break - you're a couple of weeks ahead of me.

 

Can't do wildfowl now so don't use steel. It's just that I read your post and the F size distance/penetration quoted didn't seem right - and I was bored. It's probably worth saying that the figures given are simply penetration into gelatin. As the threshold requirement has not been taken into account, it will not equate to quarry species.

Thanks oh we are enjoying it its rain thats stopping play im glad i took a big 3 man blacks tent we have rather than the compact dome it takes up lots of room on the bike but its been a godsend with two of us being at least in comfort when its rough outside.

The bobber were on was a bad move realy no mudguards worth mentioning no storage Racks just the back hoop and tank front forks and the lad has a rucksack weight on the tent on the hoop. So we are.... Minimum equiptment .

Re penatratrion you could well be right Its from a print out taken from a KPY read out it could be Toasty got it a bit wrong when he wrote KPY or Ed lowerey who Who wrote the old Windows 95 Shotgun balistics programe i think Toasty based LPY on got it wrong or the guy who Did the read out changed something ...Who knows!.

Or it could be you are wrong.

OOut of interest how diod you figure your numbers out 2 inch seems a lot at that range?

I realy should invest in KPY its only about 40 or 50 quid i think and its a godsend i used to get an opld boy in the states to run the numbers on lowereys programe for me or kpy . Hes dead now im in need of KPY nowadays.

Anybody got it on here that would be handy we could be pen palls bestest pen palls.

Not like im a mercenary or anything of course.

[TONY R]

I find this really hard to follow.

i dont type it man i just talk it then corect it when it puts a wrong word or tern in and then post it, technology has it faults you know just like me, and building a sentence from 8 or ten recordings , think yourself lucky i even add any paragraphs or any punctuation.

Numbers i put in they are what counts. The rest is just buffer.

Tell you what 9i do notice motty you are a bit dellicate if you dont mind me saying so. do you smile much man, its ******* it down here while im tapping this and me and the lad are laughing like hell at this post .

[wymberley]

Thanks oh we are enjoying it its rain thats stopping play im glad i took a big 3 man blacks tent we have rather than the compact dome it takes up lots of room on the bike but its been a godsend with two of us being at least in comfort when its rough outside.

The bobber were on was a bad move realy no mudguards worth mentioning no storage Racks just the back hoop and tank front forks and the lad has a rucksack weight on the tent on the hoop. So we are.... Minimum equiptment .

Re penatratrion you could well be right Its from a print out taken from a KPY read out it could be Toasty got it a bit wrong when he wrote KPY or Ed lowerey who Who wrote the old Windows 95 Shotgun balistics programe i think Toasty based LPY on got it wrong or the guy who Did the read out changed something ...Who knows!.

Or it could be you are wrong.

OOut of interest how diod you figure your numbers out 2 inch seems a lot at that range?

I realy should invest in KPY its only about 40 or 50 quid i think and its a godsend i used to get an opld boy in the states to run the numbers on lowereys programe for me or kpy . Hes dead now im in need of KPY nowadays.

Anybody got it on here that would be handy we could be pen palls bestest pen palls.

Not like im a mercenary or anything of course.

Sorry, don't understand this bit. If you could clarify it, I'll do my best to answer.

 

I don't use KPY (isn't it some form of jelly? ). Use the Sierra Suite - the only downside of which is that although it works perfectly, its main thrust is rifle and as such the energy figures only stretch to one decimal point, but this in reality causes no problem - coupled up by using the relevant formulae as required - ballistic coefficient, sectional density, penetration, etc,etc.

Edited August 11, 2016 by wymberley

[TONY R]

Sorry, don't understand this bit. If you could clarify it, I'll do my best to answer.

 

I don't use KPY (isn't it some form of jelly? ). Use the Sierra Suite - the only downside of which is that although it works perfectly, its main thrust is rifle and as such the energy figures only stretch to one decimal point, but this in reality causes no problem - coupled up by using the relevant formulae as required - ballistic coefficient, sectional density, penetration, etc,etc.

AH! i am understanding it a bit more now.

The rifle balistics are not shotgun the rifling helps ranges a lot hense the read out differences.

Right KPY is a dedicated shotgun balistics programe created by a American chap goes under the User name of Toasty on many of the USA hunting forums mostly turkey predator and wildfowling im led to understand.

The rumour mill is rife about him basing at least some of the aspects of his KPY programe loosely around an older shotshell balistics programe writed for ols windows computers by the late ED lowery.

Here is a link to KPY on the BPI website. .

 

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/KPY-Shotshell-Ballistics-v20/productinfo/716KPYB/

[Richie10]

A 10lb bag of Hw13 costs approx £200 including shipping.

 

That's a better price, especially if you can split it with someone. Will take a few years to get through that lot.

 

Cheers

[wymberley]

AH! i am understanding it a bit more now.

The rifle balistics are not shotgun the rifling helps ranges a lot hense the read out differences.

Right KPY is a dedicated shotgun balistics programe created by a American chap goes under the User name of Toasty on many of the USA hunting forums mostly turkey predator and wildfowling im led to understand.

The rumour mill is rife about him basing at least some of the aspects of his KPY programe loosely around an older shotshell balistics programe writed for ols windows computers by the late ED lowery.

Here is a link to KPY on the BPI website. .

 

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/KPY-Shotshell-Ballistics-v20/productinfo/716KPYB/

Not so sure. Already had a look at a different KPY site which does make life easier I admit. But, if you previously calculate the necessary parameters and put these into any decent programme you will get the same result. Any external ballistics programme is only concerned with what comes out of the barrel in terms of velocity, coefficient, weight and diameter.

 

If you can clarify the "2 inch" bit, I'll get back to you.

[TONY R]

Not so sure. Already had a look at a different KPY site which does make life easier I admit. But, if you previously calculate the necessary parameters and put these into any decent programme you will get the same result. Any external ballistics programme is only concerned with what comes out of the barrel in terms of velocity, coefficient, weight and diameter.

 

If you can clarify the "2 inch" bit, I'll get back to you.

Totaly agree, but i mess about chronoing loads all the time and just how to acctualy chrono a load at 40 yards or 60 yards. I kid you not i even armoured up a F1 chrono a year or two ago to try meassure accurate down range its imposible.

KPY could well be full of glitches or even inaccuracys, but i dont know one way or the other, its all i got to indicate what a pellets speed might be doing downrange.

If anybody can come up with a ny other method even a matermatical one which can give this info with different shot types at different ranges , please tell me i do want to know.?

As it is KPY is all i know of, and all i have from KPY are readings for certain shot types or numbers of shot type, and anything else i can get off line in a google image search for KPY ballistics, just search this and go to images and go to a relivant image click on it go to the page read what its all been about, you can learn a lot and get some KPY readouts this way. And just some can be usefull at times.

[Old farrier]

I've been using nice shot in my single 4b with no problems, and on black powder, tpph powder from cranks, think this powder was used in the proof house at one point.

 

 

That's good to know I assume it's a fine grade powder are you working by volume or weight

 

Many thanks

Of

[wymberley]

Totaly agree, but i mess about chronoing loads all the time and just how to acctualy chrono a load at 40 yards or 60 yards. I kid you not i even armoured up a F1 chrono a year or two ago to try meassure accurate down range its imposible.

KPY could well be full of glitches or even inaccuracys, but i dont know one way or the other, its all i got to indicate what a pellets speed might be doing downrange.

If anybody can come up with a ny other method even a matermatical one which can give this info with different shot types at different ranges , please tell me i do want to know.?

As it is KPY is all i know of, and all i have from KPY are readings for certain shot types or numbers of shot type, and anything else i can get off line in a google image search for KPY ballistics, just search this and go to images and go to a relivant image click on it go to the page read what its all been about, you can learn a lot and get some KPY readouts this way. And just some can be usefull at times.

I'm good at mistakes - ask Teal or Cookoff 013, faced with two formulae side by side I used the wrong one, belatedly corrected the work only to find that I should have chucked my calculator in the bin two years previously so had to do it all yet again. However, I checked last night's figures again and all is well. I'm not for one moment saying that KPY - it looks a good bit of kit - is no good. It might just simply be that someone used it and then wrote down the wrong figure.

[TONY R]

I'm good at mistakes - ask Teal or Cookoff 013, faced with two formulae side by side I used the wrong one, belatedly corrected the work only to find that I should have chucked my calculator in the bin two years previously so had to do it all yet again. However, I checked last night's figures again and all is well. I'm not for one moment saying that KPY - it looks a good bit of kit - is no good. It might just simply be that someone used it and then wrote down the wrong figure.

Im just the same, But you are right The KPY figures could have been adjusted or trimed to fit some how i dont know, I have some print outs run direct from KPY and some off the nett, but none done by me on KPY.

Whats this sierra thing you are talking about exactly please im all ears. Can you get to it online for free?

I would Appreciate this, it good to know.