Thoughts on HW13~HW 18 ~TSS Is it time for change.?

[motty]

I also was looking for something else that backed up my belief, and found this -

 

Almost a year ago, in an exchange of correspondence, a friend asked my opinion of how shotgun pellets kill.

This was my reply:-

”In my opinion, lead shotgun pellets do not kill by energy transfer by deformation. Let me explain: A bullet, whether a simple hollowpoint lead 0.22 rimfire, or a centrefire semi-jacketed softnose, when it passes through animal/bird tissues, creates enormous shock waves which destroy not only the tissues, through which the projectile actually passes but also adjacent tissue to the bullet’s trajectory. These "shock" or "stress" waves have been photographed and I think the Swedish Cartridge Company Norma published some of these photos in one of their bullet brochures a few years ago.

“The very low velocity of shotgun pellets, whatever the shot material, combined with their relatively small size is not sufficient to cause any shock wave injury outwith the pellet channel other than very minor damage. Evidence for this you can see yourself - all you will see is bruising in the area around the pellet entrance hole. The reduced velocity after entry restricts the shock wave damage merely to a channel of destroyed tissue along the trajectory of each pellet. It is this restriction of damage which means the injury is related only to the muscle and organs penetrated by the channel of each pellet.

“That is why I believe that wet wood pulp (in the guise of telephone directories) is an excellent tissue simulant. Wet wood pulp is very fibrous and in many respects similar to animal tissue. If you examine a pellet extracted from animal tissue you will observe the pulverised, fibrous, tissue adhering to it – a similar occurrence is seen in a pellet extracted from wet wood pulp.

“Steel kills the same way as lead but, unlike lead, it does not deform on impact. In fact, I also suspect, based on my microscopic examination of shotgun pellets, that lead does not actually deform very much on impact (other than when hitting bone) either. I am pretty sure that most of the deformation observed in recovered shotgun pellets is due to the initial ignition set back forces.

“In a nutshell, I firmly believe that all shotgun pellets kill by penetration of vital organs, not by energy transference due to deformation. Steel, by nature of its lack of deformation is simply more efficient in penetration and thus probably kills better than expected, despite its inherent density shortcomings, and certainly better than any ballistic theory or tables would suggest. “

What I wrote was, I believe, simply commonsense. It amazes me that some wildfowlers actually believe that “shock” has something to with killing wildfowl. It further amazes me to have discovered that apparently so few people examine in any detail the quarry they actually shoot – if they did then they would have a better understanding of what actually kills.

Tom Roster (see endnote) in the USA, with the largest lethality database in the world, has frequently stated that, to avoid wounding, one needs a sufficient number of pellets that have sufficient energy to penetrate the vital areas – i.e. brain, cervical and thoracic vertebrae and heart

[Continental Shooter]

As i mentioned before i wasn't debating penetration surely the more pellets penetrate the higher the chance they can hit some organs

 

I think muncher has explained it in a more semplistic but highly effective manner: What needs to occur,is transfer of energy ,a pellet going straight through hasnt imparted all its kinetic force into the quarry ,which equates to massive trauma .

 

 

In regards to the second post: effectively one pellet might not be sufficent to provide enough kinetic energy to kill (bepends as well on point of impact and closenes to vital organs), I think i stressed before that it was on a comparison (1:1) basis

 

if we take as an example a goose hit in the lower abdomen (say below rib cage): 5 deformed lead pellets of the appropriate size will transfer enough energy to take a clean kill (the energy will hit liver, kidney and lungs with its waves); 5 penetrating pellets will hit the intestines but miss all the vital organs and, even if they hit a bone (leg), it wouldn't be lethal or take it down ... but will kill it anyway...in time.

 

the excercises on ballistic gel or wet wood pulp are inaccurate as the animal has fethers, skin and fat to penetrate so, the 5-10% might well be 2-5%.

 

But let's use the poor goose example again using the 10% mark: if a lead pellet penetrate 1 cm, still will reach 1.1cm harly noticable and definitely not enough to penetrate the poor goose brest; yet will less energy released it will cause less damage then lead.

 

i am not questioning the effectiveness as a whole package, i am just qestioning the terminal ballistic of the single pellet

 

[Stonepark]

The terminal ballistics of a single soft lead pellet are quite poor and will only deform on impact within the first centimetre or so of striking target if above 500ft/sec and then will continue on and either stop in bird or pass through with little further effect other than a wound channel unless it strikes something vital. The deformation is due to friction/pressure of impact causing the lead to become partially or wholly liquid and able to flow and change shape. So as alluded to above, change can only occur during initial acceleration on firing or on initial deceleration on impact.

 

Similarly if you look at cast soft lead bullets fired into ballistic gelatin (with much higher energy) all the deformation occurs in the first 4 or 5 inches, thereafter the projectile continues on unchanging, either stopping within the medium or exiting depending on the residual energy with a narrow wound cavity just like a shotgun pellet. if you lower those projectiles down to air rifle speeds (500fps), either through range or reduced muzzle velocity) you get very little deformation upon impact and a very samll wound channel.

 

The shock caused by the deformation of a shotgun pellet is low and has very little effect outside of the wound channel, mainly due to their small size, if however you go up to buckshot, you start to see the results more in line with lead bullet results.

 

Individual pellets hitting something vital kills, lead, steel, tss...... as long as it is able to penetrate and hit it will work, rather than pellet energy, the focus should be on pellet penetration through a known medium which is where Tom Roster and Co spent quite a bit of time studying.

 

Residual energy, if over penetrating or whether the pellet stops within the target, due to the low shock effect in either case does not count for much either way.

 

 

Another way to look at it is a jacketed 308 soft point rifle bullet for deer in UK was approved for use at energy levels where they punch right through target at normal ranges unless they hit something massive. On impact they pass through cause shock via initial large wound channel and pass through at still sometimes 1000ft/sec.

 

45-70 400 grain soft lead round hits same deer causes shock via initial large wound channel and remains within target.

 

Both have about the same effect of deer, i.e. dead but even though both have different energy at impact, all the energy is dumped into the target with 45-70, where as the 308 round keeps going but as deformation (causing large wound channel) occurs in first few inches, both bullets dump similar amounts of energy into the target, so unless 308 bullet hits something vital on way out, no real difference between bullet effects.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Stonepark

[Continental Shooter]

Probably i am not expressing myself clearly enough:

 

the problem is that we're not talking about single pellet vs single bullet .... that's all ....

 

surely if you hit a wall with a lorry you cause more damage than with a car, but if you hit the wall with 5 cars then the situation changes .... similarly, i have the vague feeling that if you shoot a deer with an M2 50 cal. or cannonball you might just achieve a better result...

 

Just to clarify that's what i wrote ... 5 deformed lead pellets of the appropriate size will transfer enough energy to take a clean kill (the energy will hit liver, kidney and lungs with its waves); 5 penetrating pellets will hit the intestines but miss all the vital organs and, even if they hit a bone (leg), it wouldn't be lethal or take it down ... but will kill it anyway...in time.

 

every research shows that you need to hit the quarry with 5 pellets ... not sure why you guys still come up with pellet vs bullet stories .... this is not pertinent and, given the different ballistic, pressure, speed, barrel and gun you shot the two it becomes an useless, redundant exercise .... in all science you cannot compare 2 completely different means (unless you have a set conversion rate), you can compare only similar things to have a valid result (i.e. 1 lead pellet with an equivalent HW or TTS pellet)...

 

please ....

Edited October 21, 2016 by Continental Shooter

[Guest cookoff013]

I also was looking for something else that backed up my belief, and found this -

 

Almost a year ago, in an exchange of correspondence, a friend asked my opinion of how shotgun pellets kill.

This was my reply:-

”In my opinion, lead shotgun pellets do not kill by energy transfer by deformation. Let me explain: A bullet, whether a simple hollowpoint lead 0.22 rimfire, or a centrefire semi-jacketed softnose, when it passes through animal/bird tissues, creates enormous shock waves which destroy not only the tissues, through which the projectile actually passes but also adjacent tissue to the bullet’s trajectory. These "shock" or "stress" waves have been photographed and I think the Swedish Cartridge Company Norma published some of these photos in one of their bullet brochures a few years ago.

“The very low velocity of shotgun pellets, whatever the shot material, combined with their relatively small size is not sufficient to cause any shock wave injury outwith the pellet channel other than very minor damage. Evidence for this you can see yourself - all you will see is bruising in the area around the pellet entrance hole. The reduced velocity after entry restricts the shock wave damage merely to a channel of destroyed tissue along the trajectory of each pellet. It is this restriction of damage which means the injury is related only to the muscle and organs penetrated by the channel of each pellet.

“That is why I believe that wet wood pulp (in the guise of telephone directories) is an excellent tissue simulant. Wet wood pulp is very fibrous and in many respects similar to animal tissue. If you examine a pellet extracted from animal tissue you will observe the pulverised, fibrous, tissue adhering to it – a similar occurrence is seen in a pellet extracted from wet wood pulp.

“Steel kills the same way as lead but, unlike lead, it does not deform on impact. In fact, I also suspect, based on my microscopic examination of shotgun pellets, that lead does not actually deform very much on impact (other than when hitting bone) either. I am pretty sure that most of the deformation observed in recovered shotgun pellets is due to the initial ignition set back forces.

“In a nutshell, I firmly believe that all shotgun pellets kill by penetration of vital organs, not by energy transference due to deformation. Steel, by nature of its lack of deformation is simply more efficient in penetration and thus probably kills better than expected, despite its inherent density shortcomings, and certainly better than any ballistic theory or tables would suggest. “

What I wrote was, I believe, simply commonsense. It amazes me that some wildfowlers actually believe that “shock” has something to with killing wildfowl. It further amazes me to have discovered that apparently so few people examine in any detail the quarry they actually shoot – if they did then they would have a better understanding of what actually kills.

Tom Roster (see endnote) in the USA, with the largest lethality database in the world, has frequently stated that, to avoid wounding, one needs a sufficient number of pellets that have sufficient energy to penetrate the vital areas – i.e. brain, cervical and thoracic vertebrae and heart

thats a good post.

 

shotgun pellets have very little energy in the grand scheme of things. they are so small one pellet has a tiny amount of energy.

it would be a good assumption that the deformation is in ignition setback. my reasoning for this is, thats where all that energy is, after initial accelleration, and out the muzzle it is continually loosing energy, loosing speed, etc.

Anything can be efficient in penetration, it just needs a couple a hundred footlbs to do it. steel cannot be better like for like when we consider recompensation for the density difference, and size, and energy differences.

shotguns are very simple. we shoot heavy metals at animals with huge amounts of energy. we use metal because it is heavy and helps transmit that energy over distance. when we talk about clean kills it is not one pellet, its 10+ or more... pellets cut epidermal layers, penetrate muscle, disrupt vascular system, break bones, disrupt vital organs, let alone turning off the lights when the computer is hit.

[motty]

Sorry, Continental Shooter. I think you're way off the mark. Waves of energy coming from lead pellets? Nah!

[Hamster]

I don't buy that at all. You're saying a lead pellet will deform upon hitting a goose's heart, for example?

 

Nor me.

 

 

Lead can't be effective if it starts to deform straight away. It wouldn't then be able to penetrate. I believe bullets are very different. They are designed to mushroom.

 

Agree.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that when I have retrieved lead pellets from dead birds in the past, there has been very little deformation to speak of - certainly not enough to create any great 'traumas'.

If a hard pellet goes straight through the heart of my quarry and exits the animal, that is job done as far as I am concerned.

 

Precisely.

A pellet that passes through quarry just means it has more energy than one that stayed inside - unless of course it has been obstructed by bone etc.

 

Correct.

[Hamster]

Lead shot pellets and bullets are entirely different beasts.

[Continental Shooter]

Sorry, Continental Shooter. I think you're way off the mark. Waves of energy coming from lead pellets? Nah!

 

Mate, i'm not trying to convince you ... you're free to believe what you want and I won't continue a sterile discussion

 

Evrything I said it's based on physics laws and physics is what it is, it's unchangable ... that's a fact, whether you like it or not;

[motty]

Not fact, just your opinion.

 

Mate, i'm not trying to convince you ... you're free to believe what you want and I won't continue a sterile discussion

 

Evrything I said it's based on physics laws and physics is what it is, it's unchangable ... that's a fact, whether you like it or not;

[Continental Shooter]

Not fact, just your opinion.

 

are you for real...?? Ignorance must be bliss ...

 

all i have said can be verifed through physics laws ... but i take it, although you reload, you have never gone anywhere near a physics book .... much easier taking random paragraphs from someone else and make your story...

 

If we were few centuries back you'd have probably accused me oh heresy and tried to set me on fire...

 

.Anyway, peace brother, each to their own way,

Edited October 22, 2016 by Continental Shooter

[Guest cookoff013]

I think the density and terminal ballistics means we need to re think tss18. Hw13 can be shot at speeds like lead, for a lead like load.

The tss18 needs recompensation, ie smaller shot. Bigger loads may help but it's a cost excersise

[Stonepark]

Lead can't be effective if it starts to deform straight away. It wouldn't then be able to penetrate. I believe bullets are very different. They are designed to mushroom.

 

Lead starts deforms as soon as it encounters resistance and heat builds up to make the lead plastic and able to flow (liquid qualities) which peak and then decline on hitting a target, on larger shot (or musket balls or soft lead bullets) it can be clearly seen when going through ballistic jelly.

 

A small entry hole and channel for first few cm or inches depending on power and how long friction takes to build up, opening up to a larger channel for cm or inches as lead is plastic and closing back down to a small channel as lead energy is lost and lead becomes solid again.

 

If shot has enough energy at impact it does the same thing on a smaller scale, going on lead BB's out a airgun, need at least 600fps.

[Continental Shooter]

I think the density and terminal ballistics means we need to re think tss18. Hw13 can be shot at speeds like lead, for a lead like load.

The tss18 needs recompensation, ie smaller shot. Bigger loads may help but it's a cost excersise

 

 

sweet, that's exactly what i needed to know and what i wasn't convinced about

 

I knew somme oh the HW were similar to lead and could be loaded pretty much the same way with the same results but not knowint the TSS fully, i had suspicion that the density and hardness would have played an importan part in throwing the results of balance on a like for like load.

 

I am all for dropping pellets size, especially on easy shooting like decoying on night flighting; but now my doubt will be in relation to foreshore wildfowling when you get tehse pesky geese flying up high ...

 

what would we need to readjust to have a similar ballistic result compared to load load?

 

You also mentioned costs: you know i like my heavy, pumped up, 20g loads in lead, but with non tox i don't care loading 37-38 gr if i can settle for 33-34 (say #3 or #2); question is, with that in mind, is HW13 sufficent for the job?

 

Thinking some sort of Tecna/blue dot/longshot/steel 33gr #3 HW13 with a B&P wad (just to keep pressuers a little down) on a 76mm hull ...

[wigeon jim]

HW 13 or hevi-shot can never be like a lead load it's simply much better than lead! Jim.

[motty]

No way, Jim! All these shockwaves from lead make it superior.......

[Guest cookoff013]

sweet, that's exactly what i needed to know and what i wasn't convinced about

 

I knew somme oh the HW were similar to lead and could be loaded pretty much the same way with the same results but not knowint the TSS fully, i had suspicion that the density and hardness would have played an importan part in throwing the results of balance on a like for like load.

 

I am all for dropping pellets size, especially on easy shooting like decoying on night flighting; but now my doubt will be in relation to foreshore wildfowling when you get tehse pesky geese flying up high ...

 

what would we need to readjust to have a similar ballistic result compared to load load?

 

You also mentioned costs: you know i like my heavy, pumped up, 20g loads in lead, but with non tox i don't care loading 37-38 gr if i can settle for 33-34 (say #3 or #2); question is, with that in mind, is HW13 sufficent for the job?

 

Thinking some sort of Tecna/blue dot/longshot/steel 33gr #3 HW13 with a B&P wad (just to keep pressuers a little down) on a 76mm hull ...

I would say hw13 and 42g loads, just to keep shot count up. At 1200fps (a realistic 1200fps) should provide a classic as lead load. It's not 1800 fps, it's not 21 grams of shot like light-light light steel.

It can be pushed harder, but why have more recoil when the load should perform well enough.

- dedicated load data is required.

 

The tss18 is funny stuff. What energy it is given it straight holds on

If you were to have 8s and 1400fps #42g loads should perform well.

However it should recoil. I would let the shot do the work. 1250fps 42g then should perform in a kind of same way as lead.

Of course dedicated reloading data needed.

[Continental Shooter]

Thanks Cook, obviously need to find data and make some test myself; but that's a good starting point

[Guest cookoff013]

No probs. The tss18 has silly weights for very low volume.