Border collie

[WGD]

And don't forget that labs will eat the furniture, collies will chase buses and all springers are mental

 

 

Fair degree of truth in that

 

For a first time dog trainer who would like a dog that may be of some use in the field, a collie just seems like a square peg in a round hole.

 

In saying that, I would't have one as a pet either - far too intelligent and IMO need the stimulation of the work they have been bred to do... but I don't know collie lines or traits so will defer to UKP, EW and the likes who have trained and worked with the breed.

 

If you want a pet that you can take for a walk and take on a days shooting, get a lab. It really is that simple.

Edited January 24, 2017 by WGD

[washerboy]

Are labs known to have problems with obesity?

I have seen some very large ones owned by sensible owners .

[djgeoff]

Hi Scotslad

 

I agree with some of what you say, and disagree with some, I have seen gundogs petrified by the shotgun, which almost always to much to soon, and that is near impossible to correct.

 

Collies are biters because that is what they have been bread to do, protect the pack and more importantly protect the flock, ( historically ) you only have to look at another breed to see that, the german shepard, a sheep dog with an attack attitude.

 

But that dosent mean to say that all collies are biters, but it is a possibility and one that should be considered.

mine would not harm a fly, burglars would be welcome as long as they tickled her tum ( the dog that is)she does hate loud noise thanks to a idiot with a fire work, the only time she shown any sort of aggression was towards our old neighbour who was an Asian bloke who was waving his arms at her and backing away. i think it was his actions that made my dog go into aggression mode, hair up tail high and deep growling with bared teeth showing at times.

 

got me a bit worried at first but she never went for him or moved towards him as i had told her to stay. seeing her in that mode just shows how some could be really nasty

[loriusgarrulus]

Are labs known to have problems with obesity?

I have seen some very large ones owned by sensible owners .

If you exercise it properly.

Don't overfeed it.

Don't neuter it.

It will be fine.

[Penelope]

The big bear like labs, tend to be from show lines and not working strains.

 

Are labs known to have problems with obesity?
I have seen some very large ones owned by sensible owners .

[Retsdon]

Hi,

I've registered with pigeonwatch specifically to respond to your question!

 

I used to farm, and for a number of years was training border collies almost semi-professionally for either trials or farmwork (depending on the individual dog's abilities or limitations). I also ran them in trials up to national level. So I know a bit about the breed.

 

The first thing I'd say is that you can train up a border collie up to do pretty much anything, so yes, you could make a passable gundog from one. However, there are some massive caveats.

 

1) They're super sensitive and very easy to ruin. Your average gundog breed will forgive and forget even the grossest transgressions on the part of the handler. But border collies never get over any loss of trust.

 

2) They won't do what they don't want to do and they're too intelligent to bash through pain. Consequently I have my doubts about how a collie would face thick cover. In point of fact, a lot of modern bred-for-trials dogs won't even face determined livestck with much conviction.

 

3) The dog would be under-employed. I always inquire of people who ask about border collies as pets 'Would you keep a Porsche 911 to pull the caravan?'because it's a valid comparison. Yes, the Porsche could probably do the job, but there are far better towing vehicles, and it would be a crime to waste such a car's potential by hitching a caravan to it.

 

If you want my advice for what it's worth, it would be to get a dog that's bred for the job. There are lots of breeds out there, and they'll all make better gundogs than a border collie would. Just as importantly in your case, they'll almost certsinly make better house dogs too.

 

When it comes to collies, what a lot of people forget is that while you can take the dog off the hill, you can't take the hill out of the dog. A dog that, for generations, has been selectively bred to run 50 to 80 miles a day on an open hillside and respond to complex commands delivered from half a mile or more away never really comes to terms with the energy and stimulation restrictions of average pet life. Chasing a frisbee (or even retrieving a pheasant) is not a substitute for bossing 200 sheep on a Perthshire hillside, or diving in to sort off twins from singles in a fank. And that's why if you go to any rehoming website there are always masses of border collies of up for adoption. In the house, they're square pegs in round holes and the result is disharmony all round. It's extremely saddening to see.

 

Get a spaniel. Fun, bulletproof to train, relaxed at home when there's no work, but absolutly loves what it does when there is. What more could you want?

[UKPoacher]

Not doubting your credentials for one minute regards selecting and training sheepdogs to work sheep, but have you trained one to the gun? Because if you haven't then most of what you have posted is theory.

 

I had three sheepdogs, a grand daughter of McKnight's Gael and a great-grandson of the same bitch, both with ISDS champion lines right through to Old Hemp. The bitch had so strong an 'eye' that she would never pick up a ball without first circling to the far side and staring it out for 10 seconds or more. She rarely flushed a pheasant, preferring to point just like a GSP. The dog would demolish cover or if he couldn't go through it, he would clamber over it. All three made good beating and walking up dogs mainly because they were working under control.

 

Border collies and spaniels are used worldwide for drugs and explosives detection. They adapt to that role and work for a tennis ball reward. It is wrong IMO to say that throwing a Frisbee is no substitute for herding sheep. In your eye maybe. But the dog will be quite satisfied as you would discover if you went to an Agility or Flyball competition where the best performers are border collies happily working for ball and Frisbee rewards.

 

Regards caravanning with a Porsche; granted a 911 wouldn't be an ideal tow car. But a Cayenne would perform the task. Not all Porsches are the same and neither are dogs. A spaniel isn't guaranteed to be a good gun dog just as you will have discovered that not all border collies will herd sheep.

[Retsdon]

I never had the need to train one to the gun. At the time I was among border collies, I had a terrier/lurcherish animal, originally a stray from Bow in the east end of London, that was doing the job perfectly well! As a matter of fact, it might be the only dog ever to have retrieved a flapping swan from an ice-fringed river Don in January. And no, I didn't shoot it. I was screaming 'Don't shoot! Don't shoot! It's a bloody swan! just before my mate, who hadn't had a shot all day decided, in the gloaming, that he was looking at the only solitary goose in Aberdeenshire. If you've never eaten swan it's a bit like wild goose, only drier. But tbat was maybe the cooking.

 

Anyway,back to the OP's dog. I don't dispute tbat that there are collies that won't work stock (I only came across one among dozens), or retrievers that won't retrieve. But let's face it, they're the exception. On the whole, dogs will do what they're bred to do. So if you want a gundog - get a gundog breed.

 

I'll stand though by my assertion that collies are wasted as pets and obedience trial animals. Do they enjoy the work? Sure. But it's like I enjoy shooting a Nerfgun at targets in the playroom with the kids. I love it.....

 

No arguments though - thanks for the response.

[UKPoacher]

It is interesting that you don't think border collies are employed to their full extent when not herding sheep. A lot of the characteristics required to work sheep are reflected in other dog disciplines such as agility, Flyball and substance detection work. Take the sheep away and the dog will happily herd ducks. Take the ducks away and task it to find and retrieve a ball and it will do it happily all day. Just look at the dogs that perform those agility exercises on TV. They absolutely love it.

 

I worked three border collies that were at least equal to the spaniels and labs on the shoots I took them to. They covered the ground just as well and flushed just as many birds. They responded to commands much more readily, but that could be down to the training I put in. The main difference is that a spaniel will work a barren area just as hard as a thicket or hedgerow. My collies naturally learned that the open areas were less likely to hold birds and the cover was more likely to hold birds. So they quartered the open areas wider than a spaniel would and concentrated more on the cover. That was the only noticeable difference in their working.

 

My current dog, an ESS didn't know that she was a spaniel when I got her at 18 months old and had to be taught to use her nose (now 12 years on it is the only thing left working). Nothing came naturally. But she learned to flush and retrieve and was used on a shoot in a specialist beating / picking up role in and around gardens where she would ignore poultry and pet rabbits, but flush and retrieve game birds. She also helped to herd sheep on a small farm just by using the direction signals learned in shooting. Similarly a GSD bitch I owned would do man work, herd cattle and also flushed and retrieved in a beating line. Dogs are far more versatile than the specialist roles people associate with them and if they weren't there would be no canine detection dogs for drugs, explosives, currency, acceleratants used to start fires, cadavers, cancer cells, etc etc. Border collies and springers make up the bulk of those dogs.

[A1Decoy]

Hi

I know this is pretty weird one but we're after new puppy now me I want lab or springer to train or try anyway to be gun dog. However wife and daughter are insisting we get border collie , would I have any chance of making working dog out of one or are they a no no ??

 

 

Its Aimee from A1. I had to post (sorry!) as i work a border collie shes rising 3, she picked it up after watching one drive and 10 mins training to 'get back'. I've also trained her to stop and come with the whistle the same as of fully trained lab, currently training 'lost' so she searches a specific area. She has the most powerful nose and has often marked birds that all the labs have missed. She is very fast and i honestly would go for it, get them use to guns at a young age. Most loyal and obedient dogs. People say they only work sheep and they aren't suppose to be seen on a pheasant shoot (yes i get some bad looks and comments) but they can work brilliantly, now i get "wow she actually works a collie" I beat with her too! :-) I have a video on youtube of her doing a long retreive on her second day pheasant shooting. She'll sit and stay and won't make a noise (that took some training as shes very eagar) She will go in all types of cover unlike of lab which will happily stand and watch. I personally would never get another breed of dog, she does everything I want and i've had collies since i was a tiny kid. Each to their own though, my other half would only ever own a lab and thinks they're to mental!

Edited March 14, 2017 by A1Decoy