HEEEEEELLLLLP PART2

[SNAKEBITE]

Right I think I could have another problem

 

I have tried to get in contact with the chap who I got the dog from but no answer from his phones, messages left and I hope he gets back. Until then any advice would be appreciated.

 

Bobby was taken from a home where there was a single mum with an 8 year old girl. Don't know why. He was assesed and found to be to laid back for a sniffer dog so was rehomed with me on Sunday. He is 2-21/2 years old.

 

Basic training, well basic. Temprement up until this morning faultless.

 

I go to work at 5 o'clock this morning no problem. Wife rings up says he won't get off the sofa and growled when she went to get him off. He did get off on his own and has not got back on.

Next phone call was when he pulled on his lead after a cat. He paid no attention at all to my cat in the last 2 days.

Third call was where he had brought his bone indoors and was chewing it on his bed. Wife wanted him to take it back out, when approached he growled again. I said tempt him outside the back with a treat then chuck bone out front door, this she did and everthing is now fine, he is asleep on his bed.

 

Wife is already worring whether she can cope with him. He is fine with me and the daughter. Obviously there is a 6 week old baby in the house so this is an issue although Bobby does not take any notice of him at all and they are never left alone togther, EVER.

 

Ideas?

 

Many thanks.

[Jonsey]

I'm sure NTTF will have some sound advice for you but it sounds to me as though Bobby thinks he's higher up the pecking order than Mrs Snakey. I would growl back

 

 

Hope you get this sorted

[Dunkield]

Treat him like you would a child Snakey - don't spare the birch!

 

 

 

Oh, and rewards for doing well of course.

[Mungler]

We have always had good tempered dogs but I would never try and take a bone from one.

 

So, lets summarise and unpack - you have a dog that likes:

 

1. chasing cats

2. the settee

3. bones

 

Do you see where I am going with this?

[al4x]

as said jokingly don't spare the birch, basically the dog is showing you who is boss and in ways this could get out of control fast. Sitting on the sofa and growling when asked to move is not acceptable with mine they get scruffed and put back in their bed but they are a lot smaller but the same principles apply put them in their place and don't take any snarling as it will progress.

Bones wise well food and dogs is a slightly iffy one and one where its easy to get problems take them away for the moment certainly in the house so they don't give the dog anything to get posessive over. What you have is a new dog who needs to feel at home yet not run the place so you do need to be firm you also have to be consistent so make sure theres an area for the dog possibly even a kennel if possible if not you may want a cage so you have somewhere for the dog to feel safe that isn't your space. Theres a lot of bonding to do so just be patient and as far as possible remove the causes of confrontation.

[new to the flock]

Snakebite,

 

 

My Stormer dog was very much like this when I got him. He was 2 years old and ruled the faimly that he lived with. When the faimly contacted the breeder, a very good friend of mine, and asked to be rid of him, Marg asked me to take him and fix him. Ended up liking him so much I kept him .

 

Now when he got to us the very first thing he did was crawl up onto a chair in the faimly room and claim it as his. Problem was he made the mistake of grwling and showing his teeth at Trix when she told him to get off. . She had him in the air by his jowls so fast that the dog did not know what happened and then he just fell to the floor into the dominance exercise where he is on his back between your legs. Poor Stormer went from ruling the roost to finding out that he could quite conceivably die in a grand total of 3 seconds

 

There is some good advice above. I would be looking at having your wife running the dominance exercise we used before on this dog aswell.

 

See here:

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/ind...amp;#entry98506

 

 

Keep the flat collar on him for now so that there is a handle to grab and steer him with if needed. Keep the bones away from him until he learns his place, and feed him in a nice quiet spot away from any interferance for now. Remember up until now he was basically a kennel dog taken out only for work. Everyone is readjusting. As far as the snarling on the furniture is concerned , your wife needs to take this in hand now. If he snarls she needs to Give a good solid NO in a VERY FIRM voice and she needs to move him. IF she is worried about doing it by hand then snap a lead to his collar that he can drag around for now. this will give her some thing that she can tug on. The lead is for your wifes confidence as she needs to by able to do this if it happens when you are at work.

 

Your cat and a strange cat are two differant entities. When out walking and he sees a cat moving especially if it runs his prey drive is kicking in and he is trying to follow. A good solid NO combined with a pop on the lead....remember the lead needs to be loose to effectively pop it...... just before he lunges after the cat , and if neccessary a 180 degree turn for a few steps heeling the opposite direction, before turning and approaching the cat again will go along way to solving this. Again it should be nipped in the bud now before it becomes a habbit.

 

Bobby may have had some of these problems before you got him but you are in a very good spot right now. When you change his house you get to change all the rules. Part of what you need help with is technique and positioning example how to do a proper correction. I will see if I can snap a few pics for you today or tommorrow to give you a clearer idea.

 

 

NTTF

[SNAKEBITE]

Thanks for the advice.

 

I will get my wife to do the dominance exercises whilst I am at home, just incase he gets a little flakey.

 

The bone will stay out of the way until he deserves it back.

 

I will get the wife to be more assertive in the tone of her voice.

 

 

EXTRA THOUGHTS...........

 

Where he was originally with the single mum and her daughter was he mistreated?

I am thinking this because when the wife told him to move away from the sofa he flinched. He has never flinched with me. Was he walloped a lot? Could this be a fear thing as well?

[new to the flock]

The flinching in this case is probably because he knows he is pushing some bonderies. I do not think that it is a case of fear but more a case aof feeling things out to see what he is allowed and not allowed.

 

NTTF

[SNAKEBITE]

Cheers for that.

[lurcherboy]

Think your self lucky Snakebite.

 

Every Lurcher that has crossed this threshold has had the trots for 2-3 days before settling

 

Like NTTF says show him who is in charge and that he is at the bottom of the pile.

 

 

 

 

LB

[Jeff B]

It goes without saying, resource guarding is a serious behaviour. This is a dog that has been in a new home for just three days, he is mature, his previous history is not known and he already has an established behaviour for dealing with perceived threats. I simply cannot believe how many are advising getting physical as a remedy, he must believe he is placed in a very hostile environment.

 

You do not cure aggression be being aggressive toward him, it often serves only to strengthen a dog’s resolve, curing aggression is should be a well planned programme of behaviour modification. Any such programme would have to include serious consideration for the younger members of the family.

 

Alpha rolling, widely practised in North America, is not something normally recommended in the UK. Its application is misguided, the only time an animal rolls another it to kill it, by releasing the dog after it submits you are teaching it yet another strategy to appease an aggressor. It may appear to work in some circumstances but the aggression may then be redirected toward another person.

 

I cannot understand why anyone would want a dog with an established aggressive behaviour in a family with very young children. It may be admirable to home a rescue dog but in my book, the family comes first.

 

Jeff

[new to the flock]

Jeff B

 

You are correct that "resource guarding" is a seriouse issue, however although this dog did give a growl pver his bone on the bed I believe in this case that it was a feeling out more than an agressive tendancy. I also agree that it needs to be address but I believe that it should be removed at this point and looked at once the hiarchy is settled.

 

Your satement:

 

"Alpha rolling, widely practised in North America, is not something normally recommended in the UK. Its application is misguided, the only time an animal rolls another it to kill it, by releasing the dog after it submits you are teaching it yet another strategy to appease an aggressor. It may appear to work in some circumstances but the aggression may then be redirected toward another person. "

 

I have to disagree with. Dogs in pack situations use this positioning all of the time between subordinant and dominant members. Alpha and Beta dogs will have lesser dogs roll into this position on their own or place them in this position when being challenged with no intentions of killing them. Puppies at play who get to agrssive often find themselves in this position from siblings, and bitches use it aswell when pups get out of control. Having the dog submit in this position allows it to show that it is accepting its place lower down on the totom pole of authority, and when shown by all members of the faimly the dog realizes that it is at the bottom of the pecking order.

 

Now I do agree with you that it is not the be all and end all for all dogs and should not be used in every case, but in this situation I believe it would solve the problem. Nothing about this exercise is done in a threating or heavy handed manner........the example I gave earlier was with a dog that had full intent on its mind and was carried out by someone that not only can read dogs exceptionally well but has both the strength and ability to control any situation that would have arose.........It is usually carried out when things are calm such as when everybody is sitting down to the telly, the dog is called over told to laydown between your legs and then calmly and gently rolled onto its back.

 

I also agree with you that the faimly does come first in all situations, and that if the dog does indeed have a positive aggressive nature than it has no business in a faimly situation....Meet a dog from Hell send it back........ but again with the information given and from what Snakebite and I have discussed I do not believe that to be the case with this dog. I do believe that this dog is just searching for the paramitters he is to live under and that he will be a well adjusted member of the faimly once he finds them.

 

NTTF

[Jeff B]

NTTF,

 

I think this is an issue of uncertainty and/or insecurity, rather than hierarchy.

 

It is true, alpha rolling is practised between siblings and it is a dominance behaviour backed up by aggression, even a just a few weeks old. That apart, to an adult dog being forced into this position it is undoubtedly an act of aggression and as such the ultimate outcome or long term effect can be unpredictable. Bullying is never the basis for a secure relationship.

 

It really saddens me that the advise given for a dog that already has some behavioural issues, that has just been rehomed into a strange new environment with unfamiliar people is to ‘show him who is boss’ or ‘don’t spare the birch’ or alpha role him.

 

Given time I have no doubt the behavioural problems could be resolved with a more positive approach, there is no need for there to be an enforced pecking order, he needs to become a trustworthy part of the family group, being fair and consistent is of key importance.

 

Jeff

[ShaggyRS6]

I thought I should stay out of this, generally because my experince with training dogs and treating Behavioral diffciculties was not good. I say "was not" since arriving on these forums I have had a few people help me out with my pooch, in the main its been NTTF. ALL advice he has given me, and from what I read on an alomost daily basis is of the highest qaulity. In fact, he has turned Aero and me around full circle in a matter of weeks, over the internet from another country.

 

I underastand that everyone has their own opinions and ways of training a treating dogs. Everything I know about NTTF would lead me to follow his advice. He seriously knows what he is doing. If I were Snakebite and also from a personal perspective I would take a very regular posters advice over that of someone who posts once every blue moon, and that in know way is meant to sound like me stating you do not know what your talking about.

 

Probably end up regretting posting this, but I feel I must defend someone who has helped 100' if not 1000's of people on these forums, including me.

[Jeff B]

Cupramann,

 

Your inexperience is obvious or you would know that in cases of potential aggression the more quality advice an owner gets the better for themselves and the dog.

 

I don’t believe I have offended NTTF in the slightest with a different opinion, he is much above such trivia, in fact advancing the depth of knowledge on any subject is driven by intelligent and informed debate. No one can ever know it all.

 

I didn’t know a persons experience was measured by the amount of posts but I would guess the small amount of highly experienced contributors to this forum is due to the unwarranted hostility shown when well intentioned advice if offered.

 

I applaud NTTF for his tenacity as this is from one of his own posts just last month when he was at the raw edge of another PW contributor.

 

“And as far as believing too much of my on press... well then I guess I will just be quiet on training questions from here on out, as I am tired of the" You are not from here , so you do not know what you are talking about from posters on the UK boards"

 

Anyway, lesson learned.

 

Jeff

[Mungler]

Woah there Jeff, toys back in pram fella.

 

We all understand that Cupraman is saying "thank you to NTTF". NTTF has posted far and wide (and yes that is represented by a high volume of posts) and has therefore helped a lot of people on this forum with their dog training and has generally expanded the forum knowledge base.

 

You could be right, each and every one of NTTF posts could be complete bunkum but the people he has helped will disagree with you.

 

You have less posts and may well know more. However, if you don't post how would we know?

 

Besides, as an old hand at this forum you should know that any posts after 11 p.m. at night / closing time are to be disregarded and no offence attached thereto.

[ShaggyRS6]

Too many big words there for me. I gave up after inexperience. Your obviously a higher being than me. I bow to your superior intellectuality (lets make it a bit longer) Intellectualityness and look foward to further passages of shakespearean riddle .

[Mungler]

That made me laugh.

[Jeff B]

Mungler,

 

I don't recall saying any of NTTF's post were 'bunkum', in fact I have the utmost respect for his knowledge, and I'm sure he would acknowledge I have a right to a different view. I also seem to remember having an interesting discussion with him many years ago about canine psychology.

 

I spent several years of study acquiring knowledge and getting hands-on experience of dealing with canine aggression in my own small behavioural consultancy, what I was trying to point out in my post is that using aggression against an already reactive dog is more likely to inflame the situation that calm it.

 

It is not the same thing as correcting a disobedient dog as some seem to think, aggression is often a learned, well established and successful behaviour which if not treated correctly may re-emerge in different situations.

 

I also believe agression is so complex and subjective it is not always wise to advise blind on treating it.

 

Jeff