BSA Scorpion SE

[suburban shooter]

Brilliant guys !!

 

Nobody is mentioning sectional density

 

I believe that .177 kills by speed and wound cavity whereas .22 kills by wound channel ( sub 12 )

 

. 22 FAC kills the same as .177 ( sub 12 ) just better !

 

Gonk it would appear that modern warfare thinkers have re discovered what people realised prior to the 1950's when they spent fortunes developing weapons that kill people with one shot; rather than the nonsense of one wounded enemy soldier takes up four or six to carry him off the battlefield. I once spent a couple of weeks with some Spetznatz who laughed at our Western values. The Russians don't care so it is better to kill them with bigger bullets.

[Mice!]

Look at the wack the.22 has given that candle.

 

Lots of good info on here that I never new about, wasn't really bothered that I didn't know but its still interesting.

 

Still be sticking with .22 because.177 are just so fiddley, but can someone shoot a candle with a .25 and .20

 

😎

[suburban shooter]

My reasoning on the wound cavity thing is based on my airgunning experience with grey squirrels.

 

Mixed with a conversation with a military surgeon who explained why high velocity bullets make such terrible wounds from a small calibre such as .22 (5,56 mm metric)

 

The bullet passes through the flesh at a faster speed than it's speed of elasticity.

 

This means that unlike a punch from Mike Tyson that is slow and allows internal muscle and the vital organs to move out of the way ; the high speed projectile is faster than the ability of the flesh/organs to get out of the way and so the flesh in effect explodes causing a wound cavity.

 

.204 fox rounds etc are notorious for turning the internal organs to soup . .177 light pellets do the same thing so even " runners " will die quickly if the pellet passes through vital organs.

 

Those people that maintain that .177 runners die a horrible death over 2 weeks are talking absolute twaddle but unfortunately hold editorial positions within the shooting press.

[Ultrastu]

I whish I had kept all my old photos and data from my experiments .

I might just shoot a couple of targets at the weekend to illustrate .

[suburban shooter]

Ultrastu what was the expansion at 300m please

 

Also what would the penetration be with solid bullet ?

 

The shallow penetration with 17 HMR is surely due to bullet design am I wrong in thinking that a solid bullet would penetrate far more ?

 

Back to BSA Ultras what is the difference in end result from an Ultra compared to a Scorpion !!

 

Lots of questions sorry.

[Gonk]

 

Gonk it would appear that modern warfare thinkers have re discovered what people realised prior to the 1950's when they spent fortunes developing weapons that kill people with one shot; rather than the nonsense of one wounded enemy soldier takes up four or six to carry him off the battlefield. I once spent a couple of weeks with some Spetznatz who laughed at our Western values. The Russians don't care so it is better to kill them with bigger bullets.

 

In lots of circumstances bigger is better, some more fun than others!

Edited September 25, 2017 by Gonk

[suburban shooter]

Bigger is not always better .177 is better than .22 .338 lapua is better than .50 cal Messi is brilliant !

 

But I get your point life should be fun.

[Ultrastu]

Ultrastu what was the expansion at 300m please

 

Also what would the penetration be with solid bullet ?

 

The shallow penetration with 17 HMR is surely due to bullet design am I wrong in thinking that a solid bullet would penetrate far more ?

 

Back to BSA Ultras what is the difference in end result from an Ultra compared to a Scorpion !!

 

Lots of questions sorry.

There was virtually no expansion on the .22 lr bullet at 300 yds but a massive amount at 25 .

Yes a full round nose would penetrate further at both distances .

Difference in end result between ultra and scorpion .

Only .shot count, weight and length.

They are the same gun .basically .

[Guest]

Ultra vs Scorpion? Virtually the same gun. Ultra a bit easier to use in tight spaces but in all other regards I prefer the Scorpion for its higher shot count.

[Guest]

Look at the wack the.22 has given that candle.

Yeh the .22 nearly knocked the candle over. The .177 was just a clean hole punch.

[Snoozer]

What a wonderfully informative and civil discussion nice one Guys

[Pistol p]

Gonk it would appear that modern warfare thinkers have re discovered what people realised prior to the 1950's when they spent fortunes developing weapons that kill people with one shot; rather than the nonsense of one wounded enemy soldier takes up four or six to carry him off the battlefield. I once spent a couple of weeks with some Spetznatz who laughed at our Western values. The Russians don't care so it is better to kill them with bigger bullets.

In lots of circumstances bigger is better, some more fun than others!

 

This exactly, a 7.62 round will leave you dead or with massive trauma leading to death. A 5.56 round will have you being carried off by two of your mates as a minimum and then the logistics of an evacuation, hospital, recuperation etc. It takes more men off the battlefield in theory.

[suburban shooter]

In air rifles does the barrel length not affect the speed or the accuracy of the pellet ?

 

I have always assumed that a longer barrel will allow greater speed and stability to be attained therefore resulting in faster and more accurate pellet leaving the rifle.

 

So to labour the point is an Ultra just as accurate and powerful as a Scorpion ?

[Ultrastu]

Well we are governed by the 12 fpe limit for non fac air guns .

So an ultra 12 inch barrel can be just as powerful as a scorpion 15 inch.

But remove the limit and yes you will be able to get a higher velocity out of the longer barrel .

As far as accuracy is concerned the length has nothing to do with it .

Only the last centimetre of the barrel effects it .

[Ultrastu]

But since you get better efficiency for your quantity of onboard air with the longer barrel we can effectivley increase our shot count .

[suburban shooter]

Mr Snoozer have you managed to get those Crossman Destroyers yet ?

[Snoozer]

Mr Snoozer have you managed to get those Crossman Destroyers yet ?

Yep arrived yesterday a shiney tin of 250, They look a tad aggresive lol

[suburban shooter]

Thanks Ultrastu I am now using a Gamo Phox in .22 I have spent the last 10 yrs shooting .177 and am now using the same types of pellets in the .22 format

 

It seems that we are shooting pellets designed by and for the European and USA markets which both have much higher foot pounds legal limits; H and N specify 7.9 grain pellets for sub 12 lbs rifles in .177 this equates to 14.3 grains in .22

 

Why oh why do people keep on recommending pellets that are optimum for 18 ft lbs rifles in the UK ?

 

How light is optimum for .22 in the UK ? Also for .177 At what point does a heavy .177 equal a light .22 ?

 

For each type of quarry there must be an optimum as there is with deer calibres

 

You have done the maths and the shooting so I think that you are well placed to teach us all because I hear lots of twaddle peddled as established fact when it is really myth and folklaw !

[suburban shooter]

Correction folklore

[suburban shooter]

Snoozer they are cast and then machined and then lubricated with Napier lube as are all Crossman / Webley pellets they don't mess about and I am looking forward to your assessment of them. What are you going after with them ?

[Ultrastu]

I must say I agree with you .

I too think that generally given the 12 fpe limit most pellets are too heavy .

You must remember though that 20 years ago most pellets were lighter as we shot springers not pcps generally .and as a rule a springer makes more energy with lighter lead .

The average in .22 would have been around 14 grns and 7.5 grns in .177 .

But with the popularization of the pcp .which generally makes more energy with a heavier pellet ,weights increased to raise energy levels /shot count .

I would say for a .22 the best pellet on the market at the mo is the falcon accuracy plus pellet at 13.4 grns

Springer or pcp .you loose a bit of energy in the pcp.but the speed and terminal ballistics make up for it .in the springer they make excellent energy .I even use them at 23 fpe in my fac ultra .and shot a 65 yd squirrel in the head at the weekend .

For .177 I like the lighter pellets ,again falcons at 7.4 grns are amazing and kill really well and up to the 8.4 grn jsb varients.

I shot heavy bismags for years but experience has shown they are far from ideal on rabbits as energy transfere is poor on thier skulls.not bad on pigeon body's though where the extra penetration comes in handy .

 

So for me ideal is .22 13.4 grn and in .177 I'd say the 7.9 grn if your gun likes em .

[Ultrastu]

To answer your second question at what point does a heavy .177 equal a light . 22 ?

It never does .There is no cross over point .even if the pellets are the same weight ,their internal , external and terminal ballistics are very different .

Say if you had both .177 and .22 at 13.4 grns .

Easy to do as jsb make em .shot out of pcps .

Internally the .177 would shoot relatively slow for a .177 around 600 fps and make around 11.6 fpe around the same energy as a 10.2 grn pellet .

Internally the .22 pellet would shoot fast for a .22 but would make around 10.5 fpe so down on our standard 11.3 fpe with say 16 grn jsb .

Externally . The .177 would start to suffer wobble around 30 yds as the pellet isnt the right shape to be travelling so slow .yaw would set in and the bc of the 13.4 grn would plummet reducing accuracy and energy retention.

The .22 externally will spin nice and fast but its light weight will lower the bc a bit but it shoyld stay nice and stable for long range accuracy .

Terminaly. The .177 will hit with average energy but the sectional density of the heavy little pill with its momentum will drive the pellet deep into your quarry making a very narrow hole imparting very little energy into flesh or brain .the pellet will hardly deform .

The .22 will hit with average energy also but due to its greater frontal area and fragile design for its size .it will impart a lot more of its energy into your quarry making a wider shallower wound channel and killing much better

 

So as you see there is no cross over .a lighter pellet is best for airgun quarry in most options

You may sacrifice some muzzle energy but what you do is usually more than made up for in terminal efficiency

[suburban shooter]

Thanks for your speedy and detailed response.

 

I had thought that i was alone in thinking that light is right but then Longbower came in with the 13.4 Sovereigns and he talks the truth.

 

The lightest that I have used in .22 are the H and N Sniper Lights at 14 grains and they are brilliant.

 

I am using Crossman Powapell and they are really good in the wind but don't transfer energy as well as round nosed Accupells at the same weight (14.3 gn).

 

They over penetrate if energy transfer is your goal but if penetrating the vitals is your aim then they are great.

[Ultrastu]

The powerpells are the pointed ones ,Yeah?

Yep the head shape can effect penetration depth and conversley energy transfer

One pellet that really bucks the trend is the h+n hunter extreem in .177 .at 9.5 grns its on the heavy side which in a pcp gives good energy and flush around 740 fps which isn't so bad for a 30 yd zero .

They have a bc of around 0.019 which is ok for a .177 nothing amazing but not poor like a flat head or true hollow point .so this means they retain energy and accuracy out to a good distance say 45 yds .

But best bit is they hit rabbits like a flat head at 15 yds (that bloody awesome by the way ) but out much further .they seam the have one bck for in flight and another for when the pellet hits .they really are fantastic pellets and in one of my pcps the only pellet I use on rabbits .which go down hard

[suburban shooter]

Was liking the idea of 13.4 grain .22 until you said shallow wound; how shallow is shallow as I am keen to find optimum killing pellet for squirrels.

 

Shallow high energy dump is great for head shots but will that mean only one lung penetrated if body shot or will it get heart as well or does shallow include second lung ?

 

On what size of squirrel ?

 

Have found that .177 7.9 grain Accupell , Powapell and Destroyers kill big squirrels better than small ones (heart/lung)

 

Have found that .22 Accupell transfer lots more energy than Powapell (same weight .14,3 grn different shapes ) Powapell causes two sucking chest wounds even if heart missed = death.