adapting factory cartridges to roll crimp

[bradaz11]

I have a very early Winchester 1897 shotgun, and at the moment I feed it lyvale Express super light 21gs, but these never seem to extract right. they cost £50 x250. I was told by a few club members to buy heavier cartridges, dump some shot back down to 21g and then roll crimp them, as it should give better extraction. is this mental or a good idea?

looking at cartridges, it looks like £50 is the best price anywhere for them, and I can't even see anywhere local to me selling them where I can see a price online (bristol area if anyone can help there). but this isn't about saving money, I know it's going to cost more, but I also don't want to spend out hundreds of pounds on shotgun cartridges trying to get them to work and winding up with the same issues if there was a more straightforward approach by tailoring them to me. as all those I can buy seem to be star crimped, the only roll crimped shells I see are 2" shells or blanks, and I keep being told roll is the way forward in my gun,

If this was a good idea and safe, how would I go about it, as it looks like I'd need longer cartridges? as 65-70 is for usual length, am I going to have enough material to roll crimp after cutting off the end of the star?

as I understand it, it is not dangerous to lighten a load, it is making it heavier where the problems occur. that's how americans like taofladermaus and demolition ranch were always able to safely reload their weird projectiles.

 

[enfieldspares]

I had before Mrs Thatcher's Tory Government 1988 post-Hungerford ban a 20" barrel Winchester 1897 that was ex-Royal Irish Constabulary. It shot fine with Hull Three Crowns in both paper and plastic. Three Crowns being their (Hull's) cooking standard 1 1/16 ounce game cartridge in a 67.5mm case. My thoughts? If you gun isn't ejecting then there is something wrong with the gun and the extraction and ejection and not the cartridges. Yes, supposedly, the rim profile is slightly different with steel head cartridges to old truly all-brass head cartridges but the Hull Three Crowns I was using were all in the 1980s so the rim profile would be as it is today. I think it is the gun not the cartridges.

Edited August 19, 2021 by enfieldspares

[bradaz11]

when I say not extracting / ejecting, I mean reliably. it will do it, but not reliably.

I used to use eley select lites in red hulls, and they came out ok, but now the white ones are about the same as the lyvales.

this is why i'd like to try roll crimp as other members get good results

[Smokersmith]

When you lighten the load that much, you’ll not generate the pressure or velocity and could well end up with ‘bloopers’.

[enfieldspares]

I don't think the roll crimp will make any difference. Roll crimp or star crimp when the cartridge is fired it is the same length. The only advantage a roll crimp would give is that the cartridge is of a fuller length when it cycles from the magazine tube, via the lifter, to the chamber. But when it is fired it will make none. As said a 67.5mm length case once fired is a 67.5mm cases regardless of its length as a loaded round.

[Guest cookoff013]

Just buy different cartridges. Hoping to find one that cycles right.

do not lighten or modify factory shells. 

shells do interesting things when fired. The hulls and "brass "  fireform in the chamber. Sometimes the brass is very tight in chamber for extraction. Sometimes not. 

Nb, if you lighten up a load enough it can go "pook" and put smouldering powder everywhere. 

 

[enfieldspares]

I'd advise an internet search using the words "Winchester 97 ejection". 

[bradaz11]

2 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

I don't think the roll crimp will make any difference. Roll crimp or star crimp when the cartridge is fired it is the same length. The only advantage a roll crimp would give is that the cartridge is of a fuller length when it cycles from the magazine tube, via the lifter, to the chamber. But when it is fired it will make none. As said a 67.5mm length case once fired is a 67.5mm cases regardless of its length as a loaded round.

I'f im cutting the crimp off a case that is that length, and the roll crimping it, it won't be the same length after firing, but the complete shell would be roughly the same size.

 

yeah, theres a lot of bloops and pook's from the guys running blackpowder cartriges.

I may just have to bite the bullet and try other brands.

[harkom]

If your Winchester is NOT a break open type (for reload and unload) I would suggest that you take heed of the above noted warnings in relation to "bloopers" due to the risk and inherent danger of wadding or shot remaining in the barrel after firing.

From the limited information provided it appears to be guesswork as to the factor(s) causing ejection problems. Cartridge case type, length and possibly the load itself are factors but the gun itself may have a peculiarity involved in this issue.

Probably worth your while to post on US sites eg CastBoolits and look for advice.

[mowdy]

Have you tried paper cases in your gun ? Three crowns work well in a lot of old A5?autos I have had as they were originally designed for paper cases . Just a thought .

[bradaz11]

On 22/08/2021 at 19:48, mowdy said:

Have you tried paper cases in your gun ? Three crowns work well in a lot of old A5?autos I have had as they were originally designed for paper cases . Just a thought .

no I haven't. didn't even know you could still get them, I'll look into those too