Browning ou weak ejectors

[Shotkam]

45 minutes ago, old'un said:

do you have any snap caps, if yes, try them and see how they eject.

will now

45 minutes ago, matone said:

Just a trait of the action in my experience.Stronger springs would be harder to close and probably inflict more wear . Why do you require more powerful ejection ?

They literally all end up under your feet and you definitely don't want that for safety and when paying for shooting.

[Shotkam]

19 minutes ago, old'un said:

not so sure about that, if there is excessive movement the ejector will try to override the rim of the case, if this is happening it will push the case hard against the chamber wall and cause drag, it can get to the point were the worn/loose ejector pushes past the rim and leaves the cartridge case in the chamber, this tends to be more common on O/U.

I am not sure of your background, be it gunsmithing, engineering or something close but you certainly know where the potential  issue lies.

Totally agree.

Thinking about this I tried the following:

There is more movement in the top ejector extractor dovetail and when you put slight outwards pressure on the extractor as you pull it out by hand, I can feel more friction on the top extractor than the bottom extractor.

That confirms that worn extractors 'can' cause the issue I have.

I seem to recall that replacement extractors are file to fit ?

Excellent post thankyou.

[old'un]

Yep, Precision toolmaker since leaving school at 15, have worked on a fair few guns and made plenty of parts for mates guns and my own, also made a lot of parts for a mate who had is own gun smithing business.

OK, take the barrels off the action and push a fired case into the chamber, but leave the brass sticking out, now manually push the ejector out as far as it will go, whilst doing this look at the position of the ejector on the rim, is it making good contact with the rim? Or is it close to overriding the rim and pushing it away?

[Shotkam]

40 minutes ago, old'un said:

Yep, Precision toolmaker since leaving school at 15, have worked on a fair few guns and made plenty of parts for mates guns and my own, also made a lot of parts for a mate who had is own gun smithing business.

OK, take the barrels off the action and push a fired case into the chamber, but leave the brass sticking out, now manually push the ejector out as far as it will go, whilst doing this look at the position of the ejector on the rim, is it making good contact with the rim? Or is it close to overriding the rim and pushing it away?

Well, well - I shoot with a toolmaker and a precision engineer and there is not a lot they don't know about making and repairing anything to do with metal.

Exactly as you predicted - The rim is close to overriding the rim and pushing it away - worse with the top extractor!

[old'un]

It does sound like that is the problem with the ejector/s, next problem where to find new ejectors? Or find a very good gun smith who could get them built up with weld/metal spray and then file and polish them to fit.

Or your third option is to ask one of your engineering mates to put a lump of steel on a CNC milling machine and make one/two.

[Shotkam]

11 minutes ago, old'un said:

It does sound like that is the problem with the ejector/s, next problem where to find new ejectors? Or find a very good gun smith who could get them built up with weld/metal spray and then file and polish them to fit.

Or your third option is to ask one of your engineering mates to put a lump of steel on a CNC milling machine and make one/two.

Gunspares have them about £90 each genuine, and I think I will order off them.

All being well with great care, filing to fit should be relatively straightforward as I have the skills for that.

[old'un]

Good luck and post a few picture of the parts and fitting of the ejectors.

[Shotkam]

57 minutes ago, old'un said:

Good luck and post a few picture of the parts and fitting of the ejectors.

I shall do that. Are they a sod to file to fit ? I guess that its a fine quality file procedure with a great deal of care and patience, which is fine with me.

[old'un]

Don't know what fit they are supplied as, never bought an ejector.

You will need some good filing skills to keep the bearing surfaces flat and at the correct angle, use a smoker to see high spots and remove metal a bit at a time.

[Shotkam]

14 hours ago, old'un said:

Don't know what fit they are supplied as, never bought an ejector.

You will need some good filing skills to keep the bearing surfaces flat and at the correct angle, use a smoker to see high spots and remove metal a bit at a time.

Exactly !

Like most things new - you just have to get over it. 

I have previously tightened Browning with weld built up, filed and smoked to attain fine tolerance, so extractors should not be so bad.

As with many things, if you have a lifetimes experience to draw on you have an advantage before you start.

I will get some photos up as you suggested - good for the forum followers. 

[JohnfromUK]

13 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

I will get some photos up as you suggested - good for the forum followers. 

I for one would be very interested to see the process. 

I was interested to read that in designing AA Browns new (1st ever) O/U gun, Robin Brown addresses the issue of the limited portion of the cartridge circumference that the ejector/extractor touches in an O/U and has made his new O/U with a rather more 'encircling' ejector.

In a s/s, it is quite a big part of the circumference, but much less (maybe half?) in the O/U.  I'm sure I'm not alone in having (both had and seen) spent cartridge heads getting behind the ejectors.  I don't recall ever having had that happen on a s/s myself.

It has been my observation that ALL O/Us seem to have relatively weak ejectors compared to s/s (which usually throw out spent cases with great gusto!), but I have only used Beretta or Merkel O/U designs.  Both work well enough and reliably, but relatively 'weakly'.  I had assumed that making the ejectors rather weaker (though still ejecting the cartridges clear) might be to reduce the risk of the head getting behind the ejector?

[Shotkam]

35 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I for one would be very interested to see the process. 

I was interested to read that in designing AA Browns new (1st ever) O/U gun, Robin Brown addresses the issue of the limited portion of the cartridge circumference that the ejector/extractor touches in an O/U and has made his new O/U with a rather more 'encircling' ejector.

In a s/s, it is quite a big part of the circumference, but much less (maybe half?) in the O/U.  I'm sure I'm not alone in having (both had and seen) spent cartridge heads getting behind the ejectors.  I don't recall ever having had that happen on a s/s myself.

It has been my observation that ALL O/Us seem to have relatively weak ejectors compared to s/s (which usually throw out spent cases with great gusto!), but I have only used Beretta or Merkel O/U designs.  Both work well enough and reliably, but relatively 'weakly'.  I had assumed that making the ejectors rather weaker (though still ejecting the cartridges clear) might be to reduce the risk of the head getting behind the ejector?

I'll make a start on some before images when I get a minute.

With the wear on working parts like this it shows how important regular lubrication is. I guess the previous owner of 30 years was not so great on that side of things as me as the last 5 years owner !

[old'un]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I for one would be very interested to see the process. 

I was interested to read that in designing AA Browns new (1st ever) O/U gun, Robin Brown addresses the issue of the limited portion of the cartridge circumference that the ejector/extractor touches in an O/U and has made his new O/U with a rather more 'encircling' ejector.

In a s/s, it is quite a big part of the circumference, but much less (maybe half?) in the O/U.  I'm sure I'm not alone in having (both had and seen) spent cartridge heads getting behind the ejectors.  I don't recall ever having had that happen on a s/s myself.

It has been my observation that ALL O/Us seem to have relatively weak ejectors compared to s/s (which usually throw out spent cases with great gusto!), but I have only used Beretta or Merkel O/U designs.  Both work well enough and reliably, but relatively 'weakly'.  I had assumed that making the ejectors rather weaker (though still ejecting the cartridges clear) might be to reduce the risk of the head getting behind the ejector?

I agree that the ejectors on an O/U do seem to suffer this phenomenon more than a SxS, my thoughts are that the bearing area surfaces on the dovetail slide are small and any wear to the dovetail results in sideways movement which causes the ejector to move away from the cartridge rim, as you say with excessive wear the ejector can jump past the cartridge rim and end up behind the ejector.

The contact area with the case rim in a SxS is approximately 0.650” (16.25mm), around a quarter of the circumference/diameter, on a O/U that is around 0.600” (15.24mm), the step from the outer part of the rim to the case brass is around 0.040” (1mm).

It would seem from that that most of the problems with O/U ejectors is down to sideways movement due to wear.

[Shotkam]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I for one would be very interested to see the process. 

I was interested to read that in designing AA Browns new (1st ever) O/U gun, Robin Brown addresses the issue of the limited portion of the cartridge circumference that the ejector/extractor touches in an O/U and has made his new O/U with a rather more 'encircling' ejector.

In a s/s, it is quite a big part of the circumference, but much less (maybe half?) in the O/U.  I'm sure I'm not alone in having (both had and seen) spent cartridge heads getting behind the ejectors.  I don't recall ever having had that happen on a s/s myself.

It has been my observation that ALL O/Us seem to have relatively weak ejectors compared to s/s (which usually throw out spent cases with great gusto!), but I have only used Beretta or Merkel O/U designs.  Both work well enough and reliably, but relatively 'weakly'.  I had assumed that making the ejectors rather weaker (though still ejecting the cartridges clear) might be to reduce the risk of the head getting behind the ejector?

Here are a few images starting with the monobloc and then how cartridges sit in the extractors.

Image 1 shows the dreaded Browning ejector screws, which historically come loose eventually leading to the extractor being ejected from the gun !

They peen the end of thread in one place generally but can still work loose.

I replaced mine. Cleaned the tread with a tap, degrease, Loctite and peened end of screw in 2 places this time.

Also the ejector extension, which can also fail due the back face being milled out which weakens the component.

Cartridges were not fitted with any pressure, just taken any lateral movement up due to wear in the dovetails.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Shotkam

[JohnfromUK]

Thanks for the photos.  I have also had the camera (and measuring stick and calculator) out.  Gun 1 is a s/s by Henry Atkin, made 1911.

The chamber diameter is 20.6 mm (measured), the chord across the ejector extremities is 19.5 mm (measured as in photo below).

This makes the length of the circumference of the ejector that engages the cartridge rim 25.6 mm.

Gun 2 is an o/u by Beretta, made circa 1980s (photo below).

The chamber diameter is 20.5 mm (measured), the chord across the ejectors extremities are 14 and 14.5mm.

This makes the length of the circumference of the ejector that engages the cartridge rim 15.4 and 16.1 mm.

Gun 3 is an o/u by Merkel, also made circa 1980s (photo below).

The chamber diameter is 20.6 mm (measured), the chord across the ejectors extremities are 14 and 10 mm.

This makes the length of the circumference of the ejector that engages the cartridge rim 15.4 and 10.4 mm.

Although the length of the circumference of the ejector on the top barrel is only 10 mm, I have not had any troubles

Edited August 13, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[old'un]

23 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Thanks for the photos.  I have also had the camera (and measuring stick and calculator) out.  Gun 1 is a s/s by Henry Atkin, made 1911.

The chamber diameter is 20.6 mm (measured), the chord across the ejector extremities is 19.5 mm (measured as in photo below).

This makes the length of the circumference of the ejector that engages the cartridge rim 25.6 mm.

Gun 2 is an o/u by Beretta, made circa 1980s (photo below).

The chamber diameter is 20.5 mm (measured), the chord across the ejectors extremities are 14 and 14.5mm.

This makes the length of the circumference of the ejector that engages the cartridge rim 15.4 and 16.1 mm.

Gun 3 is an o/u by Merkel, also made circa 1980s (photo below).

The chamber diameter is 20.6 mm (measured), the chord across the ejectors extremities are 14 and 10 mm.

This makes the length of the circumference of the ejector that engages the cartridge rim 15.4 and 10.4 mm.

Although the length of the circumference of the ejector on the top barrel is only 10 mm, I have not had any troubles

Yep, SxS always have more ejector in contact with the rim, that Henry Atkin as certainly got a lot more contact with the rim than some of the SxS I have seen, no chance of those jumping the cartridge rim.

Are the slides on the Merkel dovetail?

Edited August 13, 2022 by old'un

[Gunman]

On 12/08/2022 at 16:44, Shotkam said:

Gunspares have them about £90 each genuine, and I think I will order off them.

All being well with great care, filing to fit should be relatively straightforward as I have the skills for that.

And a rimming cutter . You missed that bit out 

[Shotkam]

16 hours ago, Gunman said:

And a rimming cutter . You missed that bit out 

Sorry to sound ill informed and perhaps I know this cutter by another name but please explain. If its not what I think where can I obtain ? Thanks.

[old'un]

4 hours ago, Shotkam said:

Sorry to sound ill informed and perhaps I know this cutter by another name but please explain. If its not what I think where can I obtain ? Thanks.

Think gunman is referring to these….https://www.brownells.co.uk/SHOTGUN-RIM-CUTTER-HEADSPACE-RING-Rim-Cutter-55-fits-12-gauge-CLYMER-Chamber-Rim-Cutters-184115012

 

And….https://www.triebel-guntools.de/en/rim-cutters.html

[Shotkam]

3 hours ago, old'un said:

Think gunman is referring to these….https://www.brownells.co.uk/SHOTGUN-RIM-CUTTER-HEADSPACE-RING-Rim-Cutter-55-fits-12-gauge-CLYMER-Chamber-Rim-Cutters-184115012

 

And….https://www.triebel-guntools.de/en/rim-cutters.html

Woah - Maybe more cost effective to visit the gunsmith then ? Thankyou.

[Gunman]

8 hours ago, Shotkam said:

Sorry to sound ill informed and perhaps I know this cutter by another name but please explain. If its not what I think where can I obtain ? Thanks.

I should have said a rim seat cutter . Some factory made extractors do come with the rims cut but need to be trimmed to the chamber size .Others need both .

I cant remember if the Japanese Browning's had the rims cut or not  . I know Belgian Browning's didn't .

Rim seat cutters like chamber reamers are very expensive and for one off jobs are not an economic reality so may be better to get some one to do the job for you even if its just cutting the rims if you can find some one who has them as many  gunsmiths do not . It was something we frequently got requested to do for other gunsmiths because of this , Cheaper for them to pay us for occasional jobs than to buy them .

 

PS might be as well to replace the ejector springs as well .

 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Gunman

[Shotkam]

14 hours ago, Gunman said:

I should have said a rim seat cutter . Some factory made extractors do come with the rims cut but need to be trimmed to the chamber size .Others need both .

I cant remember if the Japanese Browning's had the rims cut or not  . I know Belgian Browning's didn't .

Rim seat cutters like chamber reamers are very expensive and for one off jobs are not an economic reality so may be better to get some one to do the job for you even if its just cutting the rims if you can find some one who has them as many  gunsmiths do not . It was something we frequently got requested to do for other gunsmiths because of this , Cheaper for them to pay us for occasional jobs than to buy them .

 

PS might be as well to replace the ejector springs as well .

 

 

Ah, good advice there thankyou. I recently changed the ejector springs before realising the extractor wear issue was the problem.

I'll check with the supplier - Gun Spares, if rims are precut - fingers crossed.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Shotkam

[Shotkam]

I can get a pair at £189.00 (£94.50 each) plus £10.00 postage total £199.00.

They advise better with rims not cut as the faces need filing and they will be perfect fit if rims are cut to match monoblock.

They are on the way !

[Gunman]

22 hours ago, Shotkam said:

I can get a pair at £189.00 (£94.50 each) plus £10.00 postage total £199.00.

They advise better with rims not cut as the faces need filing and they will be perfect fit if rims are cut to match monoblock.

They are on the way !

Best when fitted they sit a couple of thou bellow the face of the barrel .

[Shotkam]

1 minute ago, Gunman said:

Best when fitted they sit a couple of thou bellow the face of the barrel .

 

2 minutes ago, Gunman said:

Best when fitted they sit a couple of thou bellow the face of the barrel .

Ok. What is the reason for that ?

The current pair are flush.

Thanks.