.17 hmr and fox

[wildfowler.250]

A bit of a grey area for me so bear with me.....

 

My first question is wether a fox counts as vermin on your firearms cert. or wether its in a class of its own?, (i think i read that somewhere)

 

Second question is: If it is in a class of its own, how likely are they to give it to you for shooting foxes? Would it help to write a letter explaining that the gun is more than capable of taking a fox at sensible distances?

 

Sorry to be so vague about the whole thing!

 

Thanks.

[Blackbart]

No it wouldnt help writing that letter.your fao may get a bit miffed if you start telling him about what and what is not capable.The fox/vermin question is1 of those that annoys people because of its inconsistency,some forces like mine class it as vermin and others dont.Best bet is a phone call to them and ask them what calibre they deem suitable for fox and see what they say.

[JRDS]

An HMR for Fox is dubious at the best of times at short ranges in still conditions, in the Highlands with the wind you get!!

 

If you can get a C/F then do so, will far extend your range but more importantly they are very humane.

 

Do a search on here, its an emotive subject with many threads. People see a Ballistic Tip and think they own a Centrefire

[wildfowler.250]

Thanks for the replies

Will give them a call and see what their opinion is.

JRDS, managed to call a cub to within 7 yards few days ago....wind would only have been a factor if i was trying to spit on it

but i agree, a centerfire will be my next gun but until then .17 will hopefully do the job.

[JRDS]

You could have done it with a Cattie then!

[wildfowler.250]

If only I had my BB gun handy the fox would have got some fright!

[njc110381]

Fox isn't vermin, at least not with my force. I have it as a condition on my HMR though, and have shot them with it. As long as you're sensible you should be fine, but it's down to your FEO really. Write to them saying that you understand it's not perfect, but just now and again you need to shoot a fox. In your current situation you cannot justify a larger rifle as it will not get much use, and also don't want the worry of taking two guns out at the same time (security issue with the second gun). Tell them you're fully aware of it's limits, but at close range you know it will work because friends of yours (us) have it on their conditions and know first hand that it works

[al4x]

my force on the other hand do count it as vermin. To my mind and I'll get shot down for this but the dictionary definition of vermin does encompass fox

 

vermin

 

• noun treated as pl. 1 wild mammals and birds which are harmful to crops, farm animals, or game, or which carry disease. 2 parasitic worms or insects. 3 very unpleasant and destructive people.

 

— DERIVATIVES verminous adjective.

 

— ORIGIN Old French, from Latin vermis ‘worm’.

 

now if the police are going to make an issue of it then really it should be worded properly and state that a Fox that blatantly is categorised as vermin isn't allowed within a general condition that just states "vermin"

 

By asking your FEO you run the risk of being told no, however if you just carry on shooting them sensibly which presents no problems as in the right circumstances its plenty of gun then you are very unlikely to have a problem. The opinion varies force to force and as such is pretty unworkable as why should it be different to shoot a Herfordshire fox than a Surrey one its not like one is stronger than the other. To my knowledge no one has has a license revoked or been taken to court over the matter and the idea of a Judge convicting you for shooting a fox believing it to be covered as vermin to be told the police don't think it is is verging on ridiculous. Like a lot of firearms law its as clear as mud if you listen to the scaremongers on here you'd be lucky to pull the trigger on anything as it would either be too close, too far, not sporting and the list goes on and on

[wildfowler.250]

OK, i can see why this is confusing

From now on, any fox within 100 yards is vermin and beyond that it can be classed as fox

[jcbruno]

i have shot coyotes with 17hmr and they can be twice the size as a fox having said that just because you can does not always ethically mean you should some farmers out here could care less weather the coyote dies imediatley or hours later

as they are true pests and little to no mercy seems to be given. i personally dont care to see any animal suffer needlesly.

 

the bottom line is are you a confident marksman and if you feel you are no your limitations and work from there, i know a few people here that have shot moose or even black bear with a 243 doesnt mean anyone could do it, a 17hmr out to 150 yard on the proper condition on a head shot should be no problem

 

personally i think the 17hmr is a fine caliber for fox/ferrel dogs at the right range

[Guesty]

my force on the other hand do count it as vermin. To my mind and I'll get shot down for this but the dictionary definition of vermin does encompass fox

 

vermin

 

• noun treated as pl. 1 wild mammals and birds which are harmful to crops, farm animals, or game, or which carry disease. 2 parasitic worms or insects. 3 very unpleasant and destructive people.

 

— DERIVATIVES verminous adjective.

 

— ORIGIN Old French, from Latin vermis ‘worm’.

 

now if the police are going to make an issue of it then really it should be worded properly and state that a Fox that blatantly is categorised as vermin isn't allowed within a general condition that just states "vermin"

 

By asking your FEO you run the risk of being told no, however if you just carry on shooting them sensibly which presents no problems as in the right circumstances its plenty of gun then you are very unlikely to have a problem. The opinion varies force to force and as such is pretty unworkable as why should it be different to shoot a Herfordshire fox than a Surrey one its not like one is stronger than the other. To my knowledge no one has has a license revoked or been taken to court over the matter and the idea of a Judge convicting you for shooting a fox believing it to be covered as vermin to be told the police don't think it is is verging on ridiculous. Like a lot of firearms law its as clear as mud if you listen to the scaremongers on here you'd be lucky to pull the trigger on anything as it would either be too close, too far, not sporting and the list goes on and on

 

Your definition would encompass deer as vermin too, as well most game species.

In my experience, the Police's definition is not the same as that in a dictionary. For instance I have been told by my TVP FLO that although now that Canada geese are classed as pests, I still cannot shoot them without that specific condition on my FAC. Incidentally, after a recent variation, TVP has added the fox condition to my HMR even though I have not requested it.

Edited July 18, 2008 by Guesty

[wildfowler.250]

So what does vermin on your cert. definately cover then, excluding grey areas like fox and canada geese, (even though they are vermin?! :yp: ).

Edited July 18, 2008 by CZ452

[Macnab]

In practical terms you are probably right about a .17 HMR being ok for foxes at short range, especially if one pops out in front of you as are you are lining up a rabbit. But there are a few things worth noting

 

1) I have never found the HMR all that convincing on foxes and have often needed a 'coup de grace' on a fox initially shot with an HMR but maybe my marksmanship is not what most people's on PW is. I have used 17 grain hollowpoints and they are not really up to the job IMHO.

 

2) A c/f will make the job much quicker and cleaner in my view ('cleaner' is obviously a relative term).

 

3) Best place to start with a question like is I think is the Home Office Guidelines see here page 77

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publicatio...pdf?view=Binary

 

4) I am not sure what view the police would take if you were caught shooting quarry not on your ticket or with the wrong calibre. Guess they would never find out until there was a problem.......not a good way to find out

 

M

[Evilv]

Interesting discussion.

 

Isn't it ridiculous that the police in this country are allowed to re-define the language, dictate in minute detail what supposedly 'free men' are allowed to do on private land with the permission of the land owner, and funniest of all, that we are prepared to dance on a pin at their whims? Nowhere do the firearms acts say a thing about what caliber weapon must be used to shoot a fox. The police are supposed to uphold the law - not make it.

 

This country has gone right to the dogs and the cops have FAR TOO MUCH POWER - WE must be mad to put up with it. Better just admit it. We live in a police state and we accept it and suck up anything they say.

 

In the English language, in literature and in common usage, the fox is frequently described as vermin. No court would rule anything other than that a man who had a certificate condition that allowed him to shoot vermin could legally shoot a fox. Since the law does not specify as it does for deer, a minimum caliber for fox and since some forces will gladly hand out an HMR for fox, no case could be brought and succeed against a man who shot a fox unless his certificate specifically stated 'NOT FOR FOX'. Neither could they legally withdraw your certificate in my opinion.

 

None of the above has any relevance to the question of whether the caliber in question is the best one to use, it is just a comment on the ever increasing officiousness and powers of the police to interfere in normal life without proper legal backing and support in the actual law. The only contribution that police should be able to make in this respect is on the question of whether you have good reason to possess an HMR for the purpose of fox destruction. Since that allows for a matter of opinion to decide it (subject to judicial review if you disagree with them) they might reasonably decide that you don't have a good reason to possess one, and suggest a centre fire rifle (which would probably be better suited anyway).

Edited July 24, 2008 by Evilv

[wildfowler.250]

1) I have never found the HMR all that convincing on foxes and have often needed a 'coup de grace' on a fox initially shot with an HMR but maybe my marksmanship is not what most people's on PW is. I have used 17 grain hollowpoints and they are not really up to the job IMHO.

 

 

I don't like the 17grain HPs at all, (even for rabbits!). Seem to pass right through the animal alot of the time whereas the v-max bullets dump far more of the bullets energy on the animal. Just my opinion though!

 

 

Evilv, I agree that it would be hard to remove someones certificate from them over the subject of a fox not being vermin! If a fox is classed as "fox" on your certificate, then why should rabbit be classed as "vermin" and not "rabbit". The whole thing is far too confusing to be honest!

Edited July 24, 2008 by CZ452