2008 Badger Cull Petition

[Chard]

Disregarding my personal views on the badger culling issue I doubt that TomBASC represents BASC in any way shape or form.

 

 

Yes, that's what I thought too. It's one of those first and last posts from somebody with an axe to grind. I won't be signing the petition, I'm not convinced

 

Incidentally, scarcity of hedgehogs has rather more to do with road traffic than badgers, I would suggest. they're aren't many anywhere, you can tell that by the lack of squashed ones in the road (and don't give me that flannel about them learning to run from cars instead of rolling into a ball ).

 

Unfortunately it's one of those things I don't like about the country view of things. If a Sparrowhawk whacks a Pheasant poult, all raptors and owls become vermin and have to be slaughtered wholesale.

 

I'm afraid I'm of the view that they should start looking for another way.

[salisburykeeper]

ive had badgers take live rabbits out of wires make a total mess of the sides of the fields with their sets and even witnessed one trying to take off one of the farmcat kittens!

 

cant say im in favour of a cull but there are getting some silly amounts of them about

 

the only reason why I wont sign something like this is because all of the terrier crazy idiots will think its open season on badgers if the cull does come into place it should be gas and bullet only

[wildfowler.250]

"Asking for the help of all of the uk shooting community

As everyone knows the government is digging its heels in about implimenting the badger cull. Whilst these decision makers are sat in there offices in the middle of london making all the decisions and most have never even seen a real badger !

As you will probably also be aware with the cull in place it will also have an impact on the amount of deer that carry TB and will reduce numbers back down to a rarety as opposed to being quite common these days

By getting a petition with 10 thousand signatures on it will make the difference of wether the cull goes ahead or not

Please do your bit by signing the form at uk gamekeeper .com

If anyone is a member of other sites please feel free to copy and paste this around

 

 

Many thanks "

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As the 'C' in BASC stands for conservation, why is a conservation body trying to put a protected species on the threatened species list? "reduce numbers back down to a rarety" Why?

 

Evilv's post makes interesting reading, and no doubt that both sides are tweaking the figures, but it's a fairly convincing argument that TB in cattle and the badger population is not connected.

 

"BBC News; The groups believe their assessment supports the view that bovine TB in Ireland is largely spread by the movement of cattle. They say the disease rocketed in Ireland when pre-movement TB testing for cattle was abandoned in 1996."

That sounds fairly convincing to myself, if it is true, but surely an independant report based on the Irish results should be carried out before decimating badger numbers in the UK?

 

 

I could be wrong but doesn't he mean reduce tb numbers in deer down to a rarity?

Possibly, it's not worded too precise. But if it does, it only reflects on the latter question in the first paragraph of my post,

If badgers are giving deer TB (and I have seen no proof of this either) why has it not been a problem for the past 2000 plus years? Why now?

 

 

Goodness knows

[bob300w]

Disregarding my personal views on the badger culling issue I doubt that TomBASC represents BASC in any way shape or form.

 

 

Yes, that's what I thought too. It's one of those first and last posts from somebody with an axe to grind. I won't be signing the petition, I'm not convinced

 

Incidentally, scarcity of hedgehogs has rather more to do with road traffic than badgers, I would suggest. they're aren't many anywhere, you can tell that by the lack of squashed ones in the road (and don't give me that flannel about them learning to run from cars instead of rolling into a ball ).

 

Unfortunately it's one of those things I don't like about the country view of things. If a Sparrowhawk whacks a Pheasant poult, all raptors and owls become vermin and have to be slaughtered wholesale.

 

I'm afraid I'm of the view that they should start looking for another way.

My feelings also, I have been through the BASC pages, and the only thing that I found was a consultative document as to how the culling should be carried out, no recommendation that it should be, that I could find.

http://www.basc.org.uk/content/bascs_response_to_defras_#

[death from below]

I'd be intrestedto hear from the one's at the beginning of the post who have signed it......at least a couple I reckon who would sign any old thing if someone from the PW pages posted it.

 

I don't want to have to take my kids to a zoo in a few years time to show them the last few remaining captive badgers.... its bloody ridiculous

[bob300w]

I'd be intrestedto hear from the one's at the beginning of the post who have signed it......at least a couple I reckon who would sign any old thing if someone from the PW pages posted it.

 

I don't want to have to take my kids to a zoo in a few years time to show them the last few remaining captive badgers.... its bloody ridiculous

I would be more interested to know if TomBASC has any connection with BASC, this is his first post, and the implication from the name, is that he is a BASC representative, which I find highly improbable.

If he does not represent BASC, then he should not be permitted to use this name, as BASC members may sign it believing that this is BASC policy.

[dustyfox]

Look Badgers are increasing and TB is increasing what more do you need?

 

Disease easily spreads when there is a high population of animals in one area.

 

http://www.elp.manchester.ac.uk/pub_projec.../lecture-10.htm

 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/c...ru/130/130i.pdf

 

Df

[death from below]

Look Badgers are increasing and TB is increasing what more do you need?

 

Disease easily spreads when there is a high population of animals in one area.

 

http://www.elp.manchester.ac.uk/pub_projec.../lecture-10.htm

 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/c...ru/130/130i.pdf

 

Df

 

 

Christ a lot more than that.....there are lots of things that are increasing.....do you blame the price of fuel or the increase in murders on the streets of london as contributors to the TB spread aswell......flippant I know but this does not justify a cull of badgers....as someone has already stated it will open up the unlawful amongst the world to go carte blanche'. Just because you may be able to shoot a particualr animal/bird under the general licence does not mean you have to evertime you see it....ie the idiots who dump dozens of woody carcases after a days shooting.

[Chard]

Look Badgers are increasing and TB is increasing what more do you need?

 

Nothing like a good reasoned argument...........

 

...........and that's nothing like a good reasoned argument

 

The rich list in this country is increasing, but my bank balance is decreasing

[bob300w]

Look Badgers are increasing and TB is increasing what more do you need?

 

Disease easily spreads when there is a high population of animals in one area.

 

http://www.elp.manchester.ac.uk/pub_projec.../lecture-10.htm

 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/c...ru/130/130i.pdf

 

Df

Look, the population of this country is increasing, and TB is increasing, what more do you need? Let's have a cull on the population.

So we wipe out the badgers dustybox, deer carry TB, so we wipe out the deer, humans carry TB.......

I have read your documents that you posted the links to, in not a single instance does it categorically say that badgers are responsible for causing TB amongst cattle.

Another case of dustypox opening his mouth and putting both feet in it.

[Evilv]

Mankind strikes again. We'll not be happy until we've wiped out every last species that causes any sort of inconvenience to our food chain.

 

try telling that to a farmer who has lost everything

 

 

ROFLMAO

 

Yeah - like lost everything at the casino? Last I heard, all these outfits get full market rate compensation at tax[payer expense. My farmer friends laugh about how much they made out of FMD. It was the guys who didn't get FMD that lost out, and everybody knows it who knows anything.

 

As for the ludicrous comment by another poster above who said something about badgers increasing and Bovine TB increasing - lol - there's a fault in the logic there, but somebody else pointed it out.

 

What is increasing is animal movement for trade. The disease is called BOVINE TB, not badger TB. People keep large herds of TB susceptible, unvaccinated animals at high density, they truck them around the country, buying and selling to make some dosh, and when a few of them turn out to have BOVINE TB (that means COW TB) they want to wipe out the poor bluddy badgers who probably caught TB off the cows in the first place. How stupid is that? Especially when the virtually extinct Irish badger population seems to be responsible for a vast increase in Irish Bovine TB.... Maybe it is being spread there by that elusive species, the Lesser Irish Ghost Badger. That's the evidence people should say 'What more evidence do they want?' about.

 

People are susceptible to TB. We vaccinate them. I bet there isn't a guy on this forum who wasn't vaccinated against TB when he was at school. We should vaccinate our herds and be done with it. Of course it won't happen, because it will affect the profits of the international meat and animal traders who are the ones who really dictate such policy matters.

 

Those who signed that petition should read these words from the Independent Scientific Group that carried out a ten year investigation into the problem. After making clear that experience shows that the culing of badgers spreads badgers far and wide taking the infection with them to uninfected areas, they made the following conclusion clear:

 

The second key finding of the report, which has been submitted to Mr Miliband, is that weaknesses in the present regime of cattle testing means that cattle themselves contribute significantly to the spread of the disease - because the full number of cattle with TB is not picked up.

 

In some parts of Britain, it says, cattle movements are likely to be the main source of infection.

 

The scientists' findings lead them to conclude that the rising incidence of bovine TB and its spread can be contained "by the rigid application of cattle-based control measures alone."

Edited July 27, 2008 by Evilv

[dustyfox]

Look Badgers are increasing and TB is increasing what more do you need?

 

Disease easily spreads when there is a high population of animals in one area.

 

http://www.elp.manchester.ac.uk/pub_projec.../lecture-10.htm

 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/c...ru/130/130i.pdf

 

Df

Look, the population of this country is increasing, and TB is increasing, what more do you need? Let's have a cull on the population.

So we wipe out the badgers dustybox, deer carry TB, so we wipe out the deer, humans carry TB.......

I have read your documents that you posted the links to, in not a single instance does it categorically say that badgers are responsible for causing TB amongst cattle.

Another case of dustypox opening his mouth and putting both feet in it.

 

 

 

Well it says in the south west TB is an Epidemic in cattle, what can be the original source? its got to come from somewhere. As TB is increasing so is the Badger population. And with a world food shortage something needs to happen as me and you the tax payer has to pay for the farmers loses.

 

Df

[dustyfox]

Animal movement why dont we get TB when we go to countries with high proportions of TB, I know a few of us comes back with it but Im sure more people go on holiday these days.

[Chard]

Animal movement why dont we get TB when we go to countries with high proportions of TB, I know a few of us comes back with it but Im sure more people go on holiday these days.

 

Because we've been vaccinated against it?

[dustyfox]

Animal movement why dont we get TB when we go to countries with high proportions of TB, I know a few of us comes back with it but Im sure more people go on holiday these days.

 

Because we've been vaccinated against it?

 

Yeah but there is a new strain of TB out there.

 

And as the south west of England are you saying they import a large amount of animals to that part of the country?

 

Df

[MC]

Just remember Chard,

 

Never argue with an idiot because he will drag you down to his level and then beat you with experience.

 

I won't sign the petition, there aren't enough badgers around near me so I certainly don't want them culled.

 

If they are nearly extinct in ireland yet TB in cattle is rising then they ain't the problem.

[bob300w]

Animal movement why dont we get TB when we go to countries with high proportions of TB, I know a few of us comes back with it but Im sure more people go on holiday these days.

 

Because we've been vaccinated against it?

 

Yeah but there is a new strain of TB out there.

 

And as the south west of England are you saying they import a large amount of animals to that part of the country?

 

Df

Out there? What, on your planet? Where do you get your facts from? Oops, sorry, you are not quoting facts are you?

Show me one document that categorically says that badgers are responsible for TB in cattle, and don't quote the two that you used previously, they say just the opposite, as in below;

 

3 Conclusions of the ISG

58. The ISG’s Sixth and Final Report was published on Monday 18 June 2007. On badger

culling, it stated that :

On the basis of our careful review of all currently available evidence, we conclude

that badger culling is unlikely to contribute positively to the control of cattle TB in

Britain.83

59. The Chairman’s overview was even more conclusive in its dismissal of the option of

badger culling. Professor Bourne, on behalf of the ISG, concluded:

After careful consideration of all the RBCT and other data presented in this report,

including an economic assessment, we conclude that badger culling cannot

meaningfully contribute to the future control of cattle TB in Britain.84

[Chard]

Animal movement why dont we get TB when we go to countries with high proportions of TB, I know a few of us comes back with it but Im sure more people go on holiday these days.

 

Because we've been vaccinated against it?

 

Yeah but there is a new strain of TB out there.

 

 

Yes, of course. How silly of me

 

The Armageddon Strain Smells like bovine sheeeeeeeeeeeyte to me

 

Having just checked with Mother Beeb, the "new strain out there" seems to be out there in Africa at the moment. Perhaps it's gone on safari

Edited July 27, 2008 by Chard

[dustyfox]

Just remember Chard,

 

Never argue with an idiot because he will drag you down to his level and then beat you with experience.

 

I won't sign the petition, there aren't enough badgers around near me so I certainly don't want them culled.

 

If they are nearly extinct in ireland yet TB in cattle is rising then they ain't the problem.

 

 

Im not being moody but what is the definition of a Forum?

 

A place for discussion.

 

So if Im not allowed to discuss things like this is there any point in having this thread?

 

 

I was putting questions forward and my points. I know Im not a Beef or dairy farmer but I do feel for them, as it is coming out of there pockets as well as yours.

 

So does that make me an idiot, Im not asking or telling the government to make the Badgers to a near extinction level Im simply saying to reduce the numbers and to see what happens, thats what a cull means. And the only methods that I will see acceptable is live trapping and shooting them. If TB does not drop Im sure they would stop the cull and prove to people that it is not Badgers.

 

Df

[codling99]

dont know how about ireland or england,but wales is crawling with badgers,and imho they do need controlling not hunted to extinction,but carefull culling,when i go lamping ,i see more badgers than foxes nearly everytime,and its not unusual to see 4 or 5 badgers on every farm,and being dairy farms the farmers are tamping they cant do nothing about them,on the other hand,if the badgers that are resident are clean(infection clean) the farmers dont mind cos they live a while and defend their terriotry so keeping infected badgers moving in,trouble is when they get knocked over and then diseased badgers may move in and spread the disesase to other badgers and cattle.im not 100% sure nor is any one who gives who tb,but abdgers certinally cant be helpingand a cull wouldnt go a miss,nor would vacination s for cows .the debate goes on.

[bob300w]

Just remember Chard,

 

Never argue with an idiot because he will drag you down to his level and then beat you with experience.

 

I won't sign the petition, there aren't enough badgers around near me so I certainly don't want them culled.

 

If they are nearly extinct in ireland yet TB in cattle is rising then they ain't the problem.

 

 

Im not being moody but what is the definition of a Forum?

 

A place for discussion.

 

So if Im not allowed to discuss things like this is there any point in having this thread?

 

 

I was putting questions forward and my points. I know Im not a Beef or dairy farmer but I do feel for them, as it is coming out of there pockets as well as yours.

 

So does that make me an idiot, Im not asking or telling the government to make the Badgers to a near extinction level Im simply saying to reduce the numbers and to see what happens, thats what a cull means. And the only methods that I will see acceptable is live trapping and shooting them. If TB does not drop Im sure they would stop the cull and prove to people that it is not Badgers.

 

Df

Have you not been reading any of the posts? A cull was tried in Ireland, it did not work. The UK government admit that a cull would solve nothing.

Putting forward points is fine, if they are factual, but yours are not. You are making the facts suit your argument; Even you have to admit that "there are more badgers so they must be the cause of TB in cattle" is not exactly a reasoned fact- based argument.

[dustyfox]

Ok I found the following website and it is evenly balance. For and against badgers infecting cattle.

 

http://www.badgers.org.uk/badgerpages/eura...-badger-26.html

 

Specially look at the last paragraphs of each arguments.

 

All I am saying is cull the badgers in areas where there is a high proportion of cattle getting BTB. If it doesnt fall the cull stops.

 

Df

 

Edit: I didnt read the top bit, it said 80% of Tb comes from other cattle while the other 20% comes from Badgers

Edited July 27, 2008 by dustyfox

[bob300w]

dont know how about ireland or england,but wales is crawling with badgers,and imho they do need controlling not hunted to extinction,but carefull culling,when i go lamping ,i see more badgers than foxes nearly everytime,and its not unusual to see 4 or 5 badgers on every farm,and being dairy farms the farmers are tamping they cant do nothing about them,on the other hand,if the badgers that are resident are clean(infection clean) the farmers dont mind cos they live a while and defend their terriotry so keeping infected badgers moving in,trouble is when they get knocked over and then diseased badgers may move in and spread the disesase to other badgers and cattle.im not 100% sure nor is any one who gives who tb,but abdgers certinally cant be helpingand a cull wouldnt go a miss,nor would vacination s for cows .the debate goes on.

Deer also carry TB, whether they gave it to badgers or vice-versa is unknown, they also travel far greater distances, what do you want to do about deer?

[dustyfox]

dont know how about ireland or england,but wales is crawling with badgers,and imho they do need controlling not hunted to extinction,but carefull culling,when i go lamping ,i see more badgers than foxes nearly everytime,and its not unusual to see 4 or 5 badgers on every farm,and being dairy farms the farmers are tamping they cant do nothing about them,on the other hand,if the badgers that are resident are clean(infection clean) the farmers dont mind cos they live a while and defend their terriotry so keeping infected badgers moving in,trouble is when they get knocked over and then diseased badgers may move in and spread the disesase to other badgers and cattle.im not 100% sure nor is any one who gives who tb,but abdgers certinally cant be helpingand a cull wouldnt go a miss,nor would vacination s for cows .the debate goes on.

Deer also carry TB, whether they gave it to badgers or vice-versa is unknown, they also travel far greater distances, what do you want to do about deer?

 

If you read that website it says that each animal has a different strain and the ones found in cattle are very very similar if not the same strain as the badgers.

[bob300w]

Ok I found the following website and it is evenly balance. For and against badgers infecting cattle.

 

http://www.badgers.org.uk/badgerpages/eura...-badger-26.html

 

Specially look at the last paragraphs of each arguments.

 

All I am saying is cull the badgers in areas where there is a high proportion of cattle getting BTB. If it doesnt fall the cull stops.

 

Df

 

Edit: I didnt read the top bit, it said 80% of Tb comes from other cattle while the other 20% comes from Badgers

It actually does not say that at all, it says;

Note: Since this page was first prepared, more conclusive information has become available showing that the major source of TB infection in cattle is in fact other cattle, which are responsible for about 80% of TB infection. The source of the remaining 20% appears to be badgers. Killing badgers in areas where cattle have TB has been shown to bring about a slight reduction in cattle TB in the areas where culling takes place - but also an increase in cattle TB around the edges of those areas. The information on this page needs to be updated and this will be done soon. For more information in the meantime, see the Badger Trust website.

Edited July 27, 2008 by bob300w