scorchy Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 come on whats everyone views i was shocked and but not surprised, this has been going on for along time, what really gets my goat is breeding dog that have no quality of life is seen as alright in the show world,( most of the show people are interested in is ££££££££ ie stud fees and puppys) i have been weighing up option for quite a while now on what dog i am getting next year " i do alot of picking up on shoots" i like the idea of having a lab/spainel cross, they seem to be a lot more robust and less prone to health problems but i would also like to take part in some field trials,i don,t think it would go down well if i turned up with a cross breed and won i have three dog, spainel , a pedigree labrador and a collie/lab cross which are all used for shooting, i have had more health problems with the pedigree lab,£2500.00p later but my 14 year old lad cross is still going strong,and has caused more no problems through out his life, "touch wood" hopefully will be getting another season out him, he just wants to keep going i can,t leave him at home otherwise i will have no kennel and garden left, :blink: i would just like to here what everyones opinions is, scorchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziplex Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 I thought the 'show' German Shepard's were awful to look at as were the 'breeders' who continue to breed with dogs, (especially the King Charles), with known serious and ultimately life threatening illnesses. Was a bit of an eye opener weren't it?! I was very keen to have one or both of my Springers, (both pedigree), mated in order to keep back one of the pups as they were both wonderful dogs however Jazz had hip displacia and Lott' had a slight heart murmer so I didn't take the risk.......it wasn't as if I was in it for the money though, these lot quite obviously are. Trouble is every man and his dog, to coin a phrase, are into breeding nowadays without any thought of genetic crossing or hereditory problems. How can you stop it happening? the Kennel Club seem in disaray to me but in their favour it's gone too far now and too difficult to police, you only have to look in the local paper on a thursday or on the net to realise how many 'breeders' there are about now. My Pointer cost me lots and I am quite certain she is a top dog but who am I to say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 It was pretty horrible to watch the King Charles and other dogs effectively having fits. We all known the inbreeding has been going on for some time and it needs someone to get the breeders to stop thinking about profit and start thinking about these poor animals. The Alsations and Pugs were just deformed, no other way to describe them. It's a pity, as if it continues Crufts will just be a freak show, if it isn't already . . I am glad we have a Heinz 57 dog as they seem a lot hardier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilv Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 (edited) I thought the 'show' German Shepard's were awful to look at as were the 'breeders' who continue to breed with dogs, (especially the King Charles), with known serious and ultimately life threatening illnesses. Was a bit of an eye opener weren't it?! I was very keen to have one or both of my Springers, (both pedigree), mated in order to keep back one of the pups as they were both wonderful dogs however Jazz had hip displacia and Lott' had a slight heart murmer so I didn't take the risk.......it wasn't as if I was in it for the money though, these lot quite obviously are. Trouble is every man and his dog, to coin a phrase, are into breeding nowadays without any thought of genetic crossing or hereditory problems. How can you stop it happening? the Kennel Club seem in disaray to me but in their favour it's gone too far now and too difficult to police, you only have to look in the local paper on a thursday or on the net to realise how many 'breeders' there are about now. My Pointer cost me lots and I am quite certain she is a top dog but who am I to say Totally agree. The German Shepherds were grotesque. About twenty five years ago, I had an old fashioned, straight legged GS and he was a fine hound. He could run twenty miles in an afternoon and didn't have those horrible bent legs. Those show GS dogs were being bred for crippledness. They couldn't walk, let alone chase down an intruder. Mine could run like the wind and in his whole life he was never ill until he was ten. The people who have become the breed 'experts', were obviously self selected groups of fanatics with no rational support for the deformed breed standards they are promoting. They were also quite immune to the argument of experts such as vets and academic specialists in animal genetics. Edited August 20, 2008 by Evilv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilv Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 (edited) come on whats everyone views i was shocked and but not surprised, this has been going on for along time, what really gets my goat is breeding dog that have no quality of life is seen as alright in the show world,( most of the show people are interested in is ££££££££ ie stud fees and puppys) i have been weighing up option for quite a while now on what dog i am getting next year " i do alot of picking up on shoots" i like the idea of having a lab/spainel cross, they seem to be a lot more robust and less prone to health problems but i would also like to take part in some field trials,i don,t think it would go down well if i turned up with a cross breed and won i have three dog, spainel :( , a pedigree labrador and a collie/lab cross which are all used for shooting, i have had more health problems with the pedigree lab,£2500.00p later but my 14 year old lad cross is still going strong,and has caused more no problems through out his life, "touch wood" hopefully will be getting another season out him, he just wants to keep going i can,t leave him at home otherwise i will have no kennel and garden left, i would just like to here what everyones opinions is, scorchy From what was said on the programme by the vets and from my own direct experience, you are onto someting good with a cross bred dog. It's just as you found out yourself. Field trials lines of animals should maybe be better than the show dogs though, but they are also bred into the same stock over and over again so maybe they will suffer the same kinds of difficulties because of inbreeding though the problems may be different ones. It's the breeding methods as well as the searching out of weird appearance that is the problem. That programme was an eye opener, even though I have noticed the deterioration in mobility and robustness of German Shepherds over time. It has got so bad that some breeders are crossing GS with collies to get a dog that can walk. Such a shame as there are few breeds that are as intelligent and loyal as the GS. The problem with crossing a lab and a spaniel from lines that have been damaged by inbreeding is that they still carry defective genes. They are I suppose less likely to be expressed in a particular pup than if you went back to the same lines on both sides but the concentration of genes is still there. It wouldn't surpise me if we had to go back to the mongrel mutts that used to run about all over our cities to get back to some decent canine genes. The problem has probably been m,de worse by the recent tendency to spay all dogs besides breeding stock - the very ones that have the problems. Where are old the old mongrels we used to have? Spayed and extinguished by the do gooders of the breeding fraternity and their stupid fashions. We may end up keeping foxes in the future!! Edited August 20, 2008 by Evilv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziplex Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Just thinking back re: the German Shepard's, the more I give it thought the more I can't quite believe what I saw....their legs were not only so bent that they sat very low on their haunches but were 'wobbly' too, it was as if they'd had any running bred out of their bodies, is this really breed standard? I was just talking to my Mrs who was getting ready for work when it was on and watched it upstairs last night, we are now trying to explain to our brat just how bad it was as she didn't see it......quite how a dog should be this way is crazy really, sadly they reminded me of Hyena's with nerve damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malc Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 (edited) I watched the TV program and was not surprised either. I think it is down to simple greed and stupidity. If you are breeding for money then, surely you make less money if your pups get a reputation for ailments. That woman with the champion Cavalier Spaniel will make seriously less stud fee revenue now, after being exposed on TV. The Kennel Club register seems to serve a purpose; but I think entry onto a KC register should only be allowed for pups bred from healthy parents. Of course, there are lots of fiddles that could be used by breeders anyway. If you tell the KC that you have 10 Labrador puppies in a litter bred from 2 FT champions, in your kennels, then they will believe you (as long as you pay the registration fee). If those 10 puppies actually came out of 2 different bitches, in your kennels, or 2 different parents all together, who would know where they came from except you? The pedigree would show the Sire and Dam are FTCh and any unsuspecting buyers might pay more for those 10 pups than they would pay for dogs with a lesser pedigree. Total rip off, although this type of fraudulent breeding activity could actually have a positive effect on the breed by allowing fresh bloodlines in without loss of profit by the greedy breeder. Not that any dog breeder would ever do anything dodgy to make money. Edited August 20, 2008 by Malc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustyfox Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 I found it very sickening, seeing mans best friend suffer to get the breeder good status and money. Crufts needs to change rapid FULL STOP. DF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J@mes Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 I got to the bit where the KCS was writhing around on the floor because its brain was pushing on its skull and I couldnt watch any more. truly shameful that this sort of thing goes on, in the name of money and a stuck up dog (freak) show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisv Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Ziplex, I agree with you, those German Shepherds looked terrible, the ones that Evilv refered to looked so much stronger and better for working! If the KC would change their standards to healthier shaped dogs would the nutters still breed dogs with their own relatives and cause these dogs to have miserable lives too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilv Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Ziplex,I agree with you, those German Shepherds looked terrible, the ones that Evilv refered to looked so much stronger and better for working! If the KC would change their standards to healthier shaped dogs would the nutters still breed dogs with their own relatives and cause these dogs to have miserable lives too? I think it is the enthusiasts who dictate the breed standards rather than the KC. In any case, those KC guys were wetting their pants that the 'enthusiasts' (AKA nutter obsessives) would run off and do heir own thing in any case - they said so in so many words. We are stuck with these weirdos destroying the breeds completely. Pedigree dogs cost about three times as much to insure than a mongrel for one reason, they are far more likely o be sick and crippled and that is because of the way they have been bred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v-max Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 I am disgusted by this & it make us look bad some people in the shooting lines go to great lengths to breed a top litter. Cross breeding is very risky as you get all the good & bad things mixed into 1 & it will cause some probs i think in the future. I have seen some very good lab cross spaniels or lab cross pointer & very good but you dont know how there genes will mix or compliment each other or pups bred from them ie cancer/myopathie/ eye peobs etc. You would never be able to enter a field trial without a KC dog its the rules & at least a FTCH stud/dam has proved his/her self in the field to a very high standard & i always check the pedigree of sire before mating & look for certian atributes to cross with my dam which is hip/eye tested & am looking into myopathie test for labs as some carry the geene. I aim to breed a top dog for myself with years of service & breed my own to get what i want from the breed but would never breed from them if i thought the dog/dam could not do some good to the breed its not the money to me but it is a nice wee boost to the bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustyfox Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 I am disgusted by this & it make us look bad some people in the shooting lines go to great lengths to breed a top litter. Cross breeding is very risky as you get all the good & bad things mixed into 1 & it will cause some probs i think in the future. I have seen some very good lab cross spaniels or lab cross pointer & very good but you dont know how there genes will mix or compliment each other or pups bred from them ie cancer/myopathie/ eye peobs etc. You would never be able to enter a field trial without a KC dog its the rules & at least a FTCH stud/dam has proved his/her self in the field to a very high standard & i always check the pedigree of sire before mating & look for certian atributes to cross with my dam which is hip/eye tested & am looking into myopathie test for labs as some carry the geene. I aim to breed a top dog for myself with years of service & breed my own to get what i want from the breed but would never breed from them if i thought the dog/dam could not do some good to the breed its not the money to me but it is a nice wee boost to the bank. I think there is a difference between a show dog and a working dog. Those owners who breed dogs that they know passes on genetic diseases should be done with cruelty. Again New management and new policy at the KC now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogh shooter Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 the pekinise having to sit on an ice pac just so it doesnt overheat and die Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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