licence conditions are they mandatory

[scotland rifles]

I would like to ask those in the know the following question. and as there seems to be a larger collection of BASC members on here who are ok to let people know they are members, i do expect respectful replies please,

 

But please note: THIS IS NOT A FREE FOR ALL TO HAVE A GO AT BASC, i am after all a member who needs their help and support yet again. and as i seem to have miffed off my issuing force factual information would benefit me better than one of those " my mate said this and my mate said that etc.

 

 

As well as your normal conditions with respect to the usage of your firearms and the land you have permission to use the afore mentioned firearms over, and on the type of animals you have legal authority to control etc,

 

This is the question, Can the issuing force, forcefully make you do some kind of course, thus restricting your usage of the calibre/calibres in question.

 

The reason for the question will be at the end of this thread.

 

 

this is the wording on my certificate.

 

Until such time as the holder of this certificate posses a recognised Deer management course he/she shall only use the .243 rifle on Deer and fox, when accompanied by an experienced stalker.

 

So far i have been under instruction of a very well respected stalker/part time game keeper, a holder of a full cert in this country, as well as a hard earned German stalking licence name to go here ( ) when i remember it . i have completed tasks such as reading about all the things i should know about the intended target, its domain. its roll in life, its habits etc etc, i then was taken on walks as well as dry runs, i also had to study the movement of the animal etc etc,

 

I then was introduced to stalking from a chair and took my first animal from said chair ( all under close scrutiny with respect to safety and of course the humane dispatch of the animal ) at this time i was instructed on the dressing of the animal in the field etc.

 

My next outing was to stalk from the ground on foot and on my belly, again taking all the safety aspects of the land the animal and taking the shot etc, on this occasion i took two (2) roe does and was instructed/ advised fully all the way through each stalk, i was then allowed to do the dressing of both animals under full instruction etc, and i must say i was so pleased when my mentor and good friend informed me i completed all tasks with flying colours.

 

 

So to the point.

 

Before i sent in the variation for a .243, i was the holder of a .223 calibre rifle and others, and i was allowed to shot both Deer ( those legally allowed to be taken with this calibre ) and fox with no restrictions at all, and i had taken 9 muntjac and over 20 foxes in the time leading up to my upgrade to the .243 calibre rifle.

 

So why have they done this, its not as if i am new to shooting, i spent a long time in the forces and used and instructed on many calibers all the way up to challenger II main battle tanks, i also had the .223 calibre rifle with no restrictions before the .243 calibre rifle was ask for.

 

To sum it all up,

 

I think it stinks that this has happened ( and i can't be the only one ) i had complained to the head lady, to be told in such words as if you don't like it we can soon remove it ( the .243) from your certificate, and when i mentioned the fact that i had held a Deer calibre rifle before i asked to move up to a .243 she said NO YOU DID NOT, so i said what do you think a .223 calibre is then, i also mentioned at this point i had been in contact with Basc silence was the word that was prevalent and i opted to say nothing more,

 

So to those that are up on the law/rules in respect to the above would like to comment, please do so.

 

I am due to renew my certificate later this year, and i have ( since the start ) permissions where upon i have permission the control both Deer and foxes as well as the other animals known as vermin.

 

thank you for your replies, but keep it real PLEASE.

 

bob.

 

who is now worried about having to get rid of his .243 for fear of big brother getting miffed over the above (should we be afraid to have a go to be able to do the sport we love and care about)

[Billy.]

They're not mandatory. There was a big thing in a shooting mag a few weeks ago on this exact subject. It is to the discretion of the FEO and they can basically put anything they want on your ticket. Even a closed ticket is a condition that isn't mandatory

[markbivvy]

Hi B.

a letter to the home office is what i resort to for clarifying the rules.

this then can be passed on to the FLD for there perusal.

then it can be put into the hands of the shooting organisation of which you are a member of.

 

 

should we be afraid to have a go

no.

but some folk are and this is what happens.

what concern is it to the firearms department once a bullet has been sent and found its target and or safe back stop.

fight it or be accompanied for the rest of your life, or do the dsc.

the choice is yours mate.

Edited April 27, 2009 by markbivvy

[Harnser]

It would seem to me that they have insisted on some rather severe mentoring conditions ,for what reason i do not know . If i was in your shoes i would contact B.A.S.C. as soon as possible and see if they can help out .

Harnser .

[scotland rifles]

Hi Mark

 

It is sad that in this day and age we have to resort to a public form for the above, and i am sure i am not the only one who this has happened too.

 

It is even more upsetting when you meet ( and confirm ) with a young lad who has just asked for the same rifles as yourself and more, who gets everything he asked for first time around with a open ticket, and all because he is attending a so called recognised Deer Management Course.

 

The call for licence issuing, standards and regulations to be the same up and down the country is well overdue, i do think the problems we are having IS having a detrimental effect on the vast majority of hunters irrespective of creed colour race and financial means.

 

bob.

[scotland rifles]

I do intend too.

 

And David from Basc on this very forum has been more than supportive and helpful in this matter,

 

But this is constantly chewing away at the back of my mind, and that overwhelming thought that everything i have gone through with the high expense of rifles training/learning and all the equipment from scope covers to reloading stuff could all come crashing down around my ears when the **** hits the fan, if and when BASC fight for my corner,

[Harnser]

I am still under the impression that there is a hidden government agenda to restrict the number of centre fire rifles in circulation .

Harnser .

[markbivvy]

The call for licence issuing, standards and regulations to be the same up and down the country is well overdue

I have heard that changes are very near , and what you are going through with your FLD is going to become the norm.

no dsc, no deer calibre.

 

i have not put in for a 243 yet, but my firearms department have told me already "you cant have one of those".

despite a good few years of accompanied stalking.

Edited April 27, 2009 by markbivvy

[Harnser]

The call for licence issuing, standards and regulations to be the same up and down the country is well overdue

I have heard that changes are very near , and what you are going through with your FLD is going to become the norm.

no dsc, no deer calibre.

 

Is this going to be retrospective or will people like my self who have never taken any course at all but who have been taught by proper stalkers many years ago going to be allowed to carry on shooting deer .

Harnser .

[Bazooka Joe]

Can the issuing force, forcefully make you do some kind of course,

 

No.

 

BJ.

[markbivvy]

Is this going to be retrospective or will people like my self who have never taken any course at all but who have been taught by proper stalkers many years ago going to be allowed to carry on shooting deer .

Harnser .

 

sorry M

i am not privvy to all the answers mate, but have been told to watch what happens in Scotland regarding the dsc2 and stalking.

[radio1ham]

ive owned my .243 since last year and my conditions for it are the humane destruction of deer and vermin (foxes etc)

and also is an open ticket aswell

and i did not have to do a deer management course or need to be accompanied by a licesnsed deer stalker either but maybe different in other force areas, im in northumbria area

and also having shotguns for 20+ years

and only held fac for 6 years now

so i guess it not manditory for deer management in my eyes

so maybe in their eyes im a compitent person to own and use firearms

[scotland rifles]

The call for licence issuing, standards and regulations to be the same up and down the country is well overdue

I have heard that changes are very near , and what you are going through with your FLD is going to become the norm.

no dsc, no deer calibre.

 

i have not put in for a 243 yet, but my firearms department have told me already "you cant have one of those".

despite a good few years of accompanied stalking.

 

 

if this is the case then Mark,

 

The sport is doomed, and the shooters pockets that are nearing empty now will be even more so in the future.

 

bob.

[markbivvy]

if this is the case then Mark,

 

The sport is doomed, and the shooters pockets that are nearing empty now will be even more so in the future.

 

bob.

deer shooting will soon be the privilege of the rich mate, been saying for a long time.

night shooting will be only for the professional pest controllers, who have done the course.

[scotland rifles]

deer shooting will soon be the privilege of the rich mate, been saying for a long time.

night shooting will be only for the professional pest controllers, who have done the course.

 

 

Just what is it with the people at the top and courses.

 

A course with a certificate means nothing, ( just ask some of our brave soldiers ) all it means it that on 1 day at a set time in your life you managed to remember and correctly answer some questions perform some acts correctly. but it does not mean you are a competent hunter/service man,

 

its like a MOT on a car, on that same day it was fit for the road, 24 hours later it could be wrapped around a tree leaving 1 person dead another heart broken and **** load of explaining to do to all parties.

 

it just does not seem to be the way forward in my eyes, or am i just wearing blinkers.

 

bob.

Edited April 27, 2009 by scotland rifles

[Harnser]

May be some kind of mandatory qualification for stalking may be a good idea ,i really dont know ,but it would have to be the same for every body up and down the country . What i would like to know is why all of a sudden is it thought necessary for shooters to have some kind of qualification to be able to shoot deer . Will it stop there or will we have to have a certificate to shoot other game .

Harnser .

[scotland rifles]

May be some kind of mandatory qualification for stalking may be a good idea ,i really don't know ,but it would have to be the same for every body up and down the country . What i would like to know is why all of a sudden is it thought necessary for shooters to have some kind of qualification to be able to shoot deer . Will it stop there or will we have to have a certificate to shoot other game .

Harnser .

 

 

i think you will have to jump over fences, ride a horse, drive a range rover, own a jack Russel and earn over 70.k a year and speak with you dangly bits in your throat just to hold a licence never mind be allowed to pull the trigger.

 

 

In my case i really do fear for my renewal going well,as mentioned up above, but i am beginning to think I'm going to have to fight for it.

 

bob.

[Blackbart]

i think you will have to jump over fences, ride a horse, drive a range rover, own a jack Russel and earn over 70.k a year and speak with you dangly bits in your throat just to hold a licence never mind be allowed to pull the trigger.

 

 

In my case i really do fear for my renewal going well,as mentioned up above, but i am beginning to think I'm going to have to fight for it.

 

bob.

 

Why do you think your renewal wont go well ?

Just because they have asked for a "condition" or because you are going to challenge it ?

[fullbore]

Just what is it with the people at the top and courses.

 

A course with a certificate means nothing, ( just ask some of our brave soldiers ) all it means it that on 1 day at a set time in your life you managed to remember and correctly answer some questions perform some acts correctly. but it does not mean you are a competent hunter/service man,

 

its like a MOT on a car, on that same day it was fit for the road, 24 hours later it could be wrapped around a tree leaving 1 person dead another heart broken and **** load of explaining to do to all parties.

 

it just does not seem to be the way forward in my eyes, or am i just wearing blinkers.

 

bob.

 

 

Yes the course does mean something, it means you have been taught and trained to a certain level. Lets face it, the granting of an FAC did not mean anyone was competent to wander around the land with a centrefire rifle. In todays Health and safety led society you will not be able to anything unless you have done training or a course, so why should shooting be any different. Again I fail to understand shooters aversion to doing the DSC, if the shooter were any good they would sail through it, or do they know everything and a DSC is beneath them, a dangerous attitude in my opinion.

It is inevitable that training and certification will pervade all walks of life, professional and recreational.

Oh and as every Forestry Commision ranger has to have a DSC and those boys shoot maore deer on a weekly basis then most recreational stalkers do annually, why do recreational stalkers think it is unfair that they should have to do the DSC?

[Blackbart]

Yes the course does mean something, it means you have been taught and trained to a certain level. Lets face it, the granting of an FAC did not mean anyone was competent to wander around the land with a centrefire rifle. In todays Health and safety led society you will not be able to anything unless you have done training or a course, so why should shooting be any different. Again I fail to understand shooters aversion to doing the DSC, if the shooter were any good they would sail through it, or do they know everything and a DSC is beneath them, a dangerous attitude in my opinion.

It is inevitable that training and certification will pervade all walks of life, professional and recreational.

Oh and as every Forestry Commision ranger has to have a DSC and those boys shoot maore deer on a weekly basis then most recreational stalkers do annually, why do recreational stalkers think it is unfair that they should have to do the DSC?

 

I think it is the incosistency of it that pee's people off.Some forces are saying do it others are not.And the fact that some people have been shooting deer for years and all of a sudden they are told they need to learn how to shoot a deer

The forrestry rangers will need to have it as part of a work regulation,just like a burger flipper in a burger van needs a food hygeine cert and not because they all want a dsc to make them better at deer control.

[scotland rifles]

Why do you think your renewal wont go well ?

Just because they have asked for a "condition" or because you are going to challenge it ?

 

well to be honest, i mentioned that i was going to be mentored from day one, but it cut no cheese with her at all, so the fact that i may have 2/3 letters showing just how much i have learned since day one,

 

seems it will fall on deaf ears, its almost as if they are using the certificate as a get in clause, and in my mind its totally wrong to have persons forced to comply with a made up rule that differs from one county to another.

[plinker]

Yes the course does mean something, it means you have been taught and trained to a certain level. Lets face it, the granting of an FAC did not mean anyone was competent to wander around the land with a centrefire rifle. In todays Health and safety led society you will not be able to anything unless you have done training or a course, so why should shooting be any different. Again I fail to understand shooters aversion to doing the DSC, if the shooter were any good they would sail through it, or do they know everything and a DSC is beneath them, a dangerous attitude in my opinion.

It is inevitable that training and certification will pervade all walks of life, professional and recreational.

Oh and as every Forestry Commision ranger has to have a DSC and those boys shoot maore deer on a weekly basis then most recreational stalkers do annually, why do recreational stalkers think it is unfair that they should have to do the DSC?

 

you seem to have swallowed it hook ,line and sinker , a person can be fully competent in something without the goverment bit of paper you know.

but i do agree that anyone without a criminal record can get a fac , and that can be scary.

[scotland rifles]

Yes the course does mean something, it means you have been taught and trained to a certain level. Lets face it, the granting of an FAC did not mean anyone was competent to wander around the land with a centrefire rifle. In todays Health and safety led society you will not be able to anything unless you have done training or a course, so why should shooting be any different. Again I fail to understand shooters aversion to doing the DSC, if the shooter were any good they would sail through it, or do they know everything and a DSC is beneath them, a dangerous attitude in my opinion.

It is inevitable that training and certification will pervade all walks of life, professional and recreational.

Oh and as every Forestrycommission ranger has to have a DSC and those boys shoot more deer on a weekly basis then most recreational stalkers do annually, why do recreational stalkers think it is unfair that they should have to do the DSC?

 

 

 

I think it is the inconsistency of it that pee's people off.Some forces are saying do it others are not.And the fact that some people have been shooting deer for years and all of a sudden they are told they need to learn how to shoot a deer

The forestry rangers will need to have it as part of a work regulation,just like a burger flipper in a burger van needs a food hygiene cert and not because they all want a dsc to make them better at deer control.

 

Now you may have hit a nerve sir. i know of 2 hunters that have been in this position. and both are well miffed.

 

I could have said to them when i first got my ticket something like,

 

oh ! by the way did you know that i have more than likely fired more centre fire ammo in a week than the whole of the county of north yorkshire does in a year, as a gunnery instructor in the royal armoured corps this is a distinct possibility,

 

it would have possibly been looked upon as cheeky comment, as would the question of when is a competent shooter truly competent and the answer to that is NEVER, because you will at some point in your shooting life come across a situation you will not find in any book classroom or any other shooters stories.

 

bob.

[fullbore]

you seem to have swallowed it hook ,line and sinker , a person can be fully competent in something without the goverment bit of paper you know.

but i do agree that anyone without a criminal record can get a fac , and that can be scary.

 

 

No I have not swallowed anything, and you have missed the point, training and certification is pervading our entire lives, both professional and recreational, so why does everyone think shooting should be different?

A plumber may be competent and he will still not be allowed to touch a GAs installation without the government bit of paper.

I may have said this in similar threads before, but I have held a HGV class one license for 30 years now, but unless I do the drivers certificate of proffessional competence I will lose that license. Will the course make me a better driver? Not according to the logic in this thread.

I totally agree that the course will not make anyone a better stalker, but why should a degree mean some one can do the same job better than someone without one? The long and short of it is, you have a choice, do the DSC or don't. I don't care. I have mine and when it becomes compulsory to have before you can stalk, I will smile everytime I stalk on land where the previous occupier refused to do the DSC.

It is already compulsory to have DSC 1 to be allowed to be in a syndicate on FC land and you must have level 2 before you can be a leaseholder. And you still have to undergo annual checking and shooting test. No the DSC is not a guarantee to become a better stalker, but it is a good foundation on which to build upon, and I defy anyone who has done it to say they didn't learn anything.

Don't get me wrong, I despise compulsory anything, my contention is it is inevitable, and you still have a choice, do it or don't

Edited April 27, 2009 by fullbore

[scotland rifles]

I will retire to ones bed now,

 

leaving you that think you know the answers to leave a reply.

 

i will be up early for work and then to go stalking at about 17.30,

 

Enjoy the reading, and please reply if you have anything good to add,

 

but please remember this is not to dig at each other, for this is what they want,

 

a force bickering within itself is no force at all.

 

lets hope they never win the fight, but that they seek our advice when it comes down to it,

 

good night good hunting and keep safe.

 

bob.

Edited April 27, 2009 by scotland rifles