pigeon master Posted April 17, 2005 Report Share Posted April 17, 2005 Hello all, I have a problem with my ESS Amber, I have started taking her out with me pigeon shooting to see how she is directly under the gun, and to get her used to sitting for hours in one place, which is unheard of for her. The problem is, when I drop a bird she will only retrieve the birds that she watches hit the ground, it’s obviously something I’ve got wrong in training, but she is having none of it. She finds the birds but acts more like a pointer than an ESS. I need advice guys to sort this problem out…when training her I used to hide birds in cover and she would find them, bring them back to hand and release on the dead command, but something has gone wrong and she is not playing our game anymore. What can I do…. she is still young at 9 month so I’m sure she has time to correct this problem. The PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon master Posted April 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 I’ve been reading about a method called force retrieving, the Americans use it quite a lot I hear but they say its very time consuming, but they get the message in the end. Is this my only option I have left after me error in training? Help required. The PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEREGRINE Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 PM the best person to ask about any gundog problems is Mad Springer. He is helping out a lot with my dog and he really knows his stuff. Peregrine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAMMY Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 PM I'm no expert, but have successfully trained several labs, your dog's a baby, I would keep her well away from a Pigeon Hide, until she's more mature. All mine have only ever had the basics at 9 months. But everyone has a different view and every dog is different. And I am sure you are correct, plenty of time. I'll be interested to hear some of the experts views. Hammy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadSpringer Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Hi PM, There are many on this forum that will give you sound advice about training your springer pup! I guarantee that they will all come up with the same advice and that is your pup is still very young and you shouldn't rush things with her. At 9 months she will only be able to grasp the basics and you must make sure she knows those fully before you move on, don’t RUSH her! I will type up some exercises that will help you to get her keen to hunt and retrieve blind retrieves and post them later. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 What can I do…. she is still young at 9 month so I’m sure she has time to correct this problem. Plenty of time mate... My Springer I got From Mad Springer has only recently started serious training at nearly 12 Months and the previous dog I had started at 18 months after I had let it live a little. There aint too much to worry about she is clearly marking the birds shot so has got the right idea at an early age... Do you send her out on the retrieve as soon as the bird falls or after a lull ? I would go back to the basic retrieval training using hidden birds, and perhaps try simulating shooting conditions without using a gun Ie. keep her in the hide and send her out after hidden birds every so often. Heap plenty of praise when she gets it right. My cocker had a problem with this at 2 He would not retrieve cold birds in preference to warm ones.. if he saw a bird fall he would be straining at the slip to get to it but if you let him go he would go straight to the fresh bird and completely avoid several other dead birds scatterred around. When I thought about it logically this is exacatly what I wanted him to do so I didnt try and correct it. Now at 4 he will bring all things feathered to hand even half decomposed crows he has found in the undergrowth. As peregrine says Mad Springer is the guy to ask he is extremely knowledgable when it comes to this particular breed. Good Luck. FM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadSpringer Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 PM, Can you outline the commands you have taught Amber! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon master Posted April 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 (edited) MS, Yes, the commands I'm using at the moment are as follows. Find It - to release the dog to go and search Back- to send the dog further back to find any birds. To Me - after she has picked to bring the bird back Dead - to release the bird from her mouth Heal - to come back to me with no bird Still - to make her ready for an expected shot from the hide, the little beggar stays rock solid and looks through the netting. To give direction I point two fingers at my eyes, when doing this she sits and sets off in the direction I point my arm, this is when I use the command, Find It. Guys I'm aware that she has loads of time left, and I did have a good chat with several members when I took her on the beating line at 6 months, but I couldn’t wait as its my first Gundog. She did great and was complimented by many on the driven days that for such a young dog she was very keen and understood my commands. I’m sure with some advice from the more experienced she’ll be back on track. I hope these are OK for you MS, if you need any more I’m using then please contact me. The PM FM, I send her as soon as the bird drops, should I make her wait a little longer? Edited April 18, 2005 by pigeon master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Pigeon Master It sounds to me that she is loosing confidance and motivation when she doesn't see the bird go down. I am assuming that although you have taught her to handle that you have not done any formal retrieve to hand training. If I am wrong let me know. This dog is young and is learning however she is getting confused as well. I wrote two programs awhile back that I think you may want to read. The one Stop whistle training,(pinned at the top of forum) is the program that I would be putting this dog through. I know, I know its not the stop you are having problems with. Read it through , I think that you will get the outcome you are after. The other one is entitled "For Your Gsp Tercil" It is a basic out line of the force fetch program that I use. If you decide to do a force fetch, be prepared to spend 2 sessions a day for the next 8 weeks. It is a long excercise and it can frustrate you to no end while teaching it. If she has a natural retrieve and likes retrieveing then I would suggest that you do not force her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadSpringer Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 Hi PM, After talking to you about Amber you need to concentrate on retrieving to build her confidence. You won’t go wrong working through the Stop Whistle Training article NTTF has posted, remember not to rush her and make sure she fully understands one command before you try to teach another one. Trying to teach her too much at this age will only confuse her. If you are intending to use her for beating and pigeon shooting you will also need to concentrate on keeping her close and very steady, don’t let her range too far from you, keep her under 20 yards. When you are out walking her drop a tennis ball or two close to you without her seeing and work her towards the area they are in, she should soon pick up the sent and find them. This exercise teaches the dog (over time) that it is rewarding to hunt close to you because it is successful in finding things when it is near to you. As always give lots of praise when she finds the tennis balls and retrieves them to you. You can do this as an informal exercise and stick to NTTF program in your formal training sessions. During our conversation I mentioned how I use a narrow path or track to teach the BACK command. Whilst out this morning I took some photos to show you how I would start to teach the BACK command and how the training area can encourage the dog to go back in a straight line. I walk the dog out at heel to the spot where I place the dummy down, I then walk the dog back 15-20 yards and give the sit command. I now walk a further 10 yards from the dog and turn to face it, I call the dogs name and tell it BACK whilst giving a clear hand signal in the direction of the dummy. I always find it best to start this exercise on short grass or tarmac so the dummy is visible and the dog spots it as soon as it turns to go back, this builds confidence through success. Once the dog is confidently going back you can move the exercise to a spot where there is a little more cover, perform the exercise in the same way and always place the dummy in the same spot. When the dog is confidently going back in the new training spot you can try the same exercise on a blind retrieve. Walk the dog along the track and drop the dummy behind you as you walk over the spot you have placed it in training (without the dog seeing it), keep walking and sit the dog walk on and turn to give the BACK command. If all has gone well in training the dog will go straight back to the spot where it has picked the dummy in previous training sessions. This exercise builds the dogs confidence in you, it learns that if you send it back then there is going to be a retrieve for it to find. Waiting to be sent back Just picked the dummy Almost back The Same Exercise in a Different Spot Don't be in a hurry to take a retrieve I hope from the photos you can see how the training area helps the dog to succeed in the exercise. If you would find photos of specific training exercises helpful let me know and I’ll try and get some decent photos of the dogs. Hope this helps. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon master Posted April 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2005 (edited) Hello all, Well I’ve had a good read through your posts and identified where I’ve been going wrong. I’m seeing my experience with Amber so far as an introduction for her to the shooting world, and I’ve decided to go right back to basics with her and start from scratch. I’m hoping, what she has learned so far will put her in good stead for the more advanced stages in her training a little later on but she is starting the journey once again. After a good chat with Madspringer, which was much appreciated, I learned that the dog needed to build confidence in me rather than just obeying my commands, and I had NOT taken this aspect into consideration. NTTF, I have read your posts and I will be integrating your training methods along with MS into her training regime over the long term and see how she goes. I'm looking forward to it. Cheers once again guys; I will keep you updated with her progress. The PM Edited April 20, 2005 by pigeon master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Mad Springer How did you manage to put the series of photos in the one post? Pigeon Master how is Amber coming on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadSpringer Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Hi NTTF I used image shack http://www.imageshack.us/ and pasted the direct link to the image in the post! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurcherboy Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Mad Springer How did you manage to put the series of photos in the one post? Pigeon Master how is Amber coming on? NT, if your thinking of posting the 'whos the daddy' monkey pictures, please dont :thumbs: LB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Hadn't thought of that.....but I am sure it would be enjoyed by all..... :thumbs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Hadn't thought of that.....but I am sure it would be enjoyed by all..... :thumbs: After all did not someone just suggest a thread of wildlife photos??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul tony cassidy Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 the way mad springer has told u how to train the back command is spot on, imo the dog is being pushed on too young and for the time being i would retrieve the pigeons your self till u build up more confidece and take the dogs training further... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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