Matt Gould Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 just a quick question are lyalvale 2 3/4 " shot size 3 steel any good for geese ? Many thanks Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziplex Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 just a quick question are lyalvale 2 3/4 " shot size 3 steel any good for geese ? Many thanks Matt I would of thought 1's in steel, I use hevi-shot as I don't take too many shots at them and I know it works, I use steel in 3's for duck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMatt1979 Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) I usually use Steel 3`s for geese, but go for a 3" magnum (gamebore usually). Have used Hevi Shot 3`s as well, and know they work very well indeed (but they are damned expensive!). Would stick to shot size 3 or bigger and as heavy as you can get (34 gram plus in hevi shot ot steel if possible). Take it your gun is chambered for 2 3/4" only? Edited August 3, 2009 by MadMatt1979 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 If your gun is only 2 3/4" chambered then go for either hevi shot or Tungsten Matrix. To be honest if you can get steel in 1's or bb's then they will do, but hevishot at sensible ranges will work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Gould Posted August 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 the gun is a hatsan escort escort 3" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest topshot_2k Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 the gun is a hatsan escort escort 3" then express 36g #1 shot or Remington 38g #1 steel will do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 I have shot a few close geese with steel 3s when duck shooting , but I have yet to find a realy effective shop bought steel shell for geese. When going for geese with steel shells I would not like to use anything smaller than 1s and BB or BBB are much better in 3 inch or 3.5 inch loads. For anything over 40 yards you will need tunstun matrex in 3s 1s or BBs or hevi shot in 4s or 3s. To use 3s for geese would be like using 6s in lead in the old days , yes they will kill sometimes , but the shot size is far too small. Its Like wise 3s were a good lead shot size for geese so step up to BBs or larger in steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikee Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 I usually use Steel 3`s for geese, but go for a 3" magnum (gamebore usually). Have used Hevi Shot 3`s as well, and know they work very well indeed (but they are damned expensive!). Would stick to shot size 3 or bigger and as heavy as you can get (34 gram plus in hevi shot ot steel if possible). Take it your gun is chambered for 2 3/4" only? using heavy loads is ok with dense shot like tungsten or hevi shot but you would be much better using a light steel load of say 1oz of bb in a 70mm case or 1 1/8 of bb in a 3" case, with steel shot its speed that does the job mikee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scolopax Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) I think they did a comparison on the wildfowling forum using a chrono on various steel loads. If I remember correctly the Lyalvale came out very poorly, in fact the fps was so slow it must have been a bad batch, 900 fps or something silly like that. So in answer to your question, no Lyalvale steel 3 shot are not suitable for geese. Spend the extra few quid on ITM or Hevi shot and have the peace of mind of knowing you are shooting with the best available. Those folk who say they are too expensive must be in the very fortunate position of shooting alot of geese. Edited August 3, 2009 by scolopax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest topshot_2k Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 So in answer to your question, no Lyalvale steel 3 shot are not suitable for geese. Spend the extra few quid on ITM or Hevi shot and have the peace of mind of knowing you are shooting with the best available. Those folk who say they are too expensive must be in the very fortunate position of shooting alot of geese. I must have been dreaming all last season then as i bagged a lot of canada geese using express #3 shot Silly paying £30 a box for tungsten when Remington 38g steel does the job cleanly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Gould Posted August 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) Thank you all for your help Edited August 4, 2009 by Matt Gould Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted August 9, 2009 Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 To use 3s for geese would be like using 6s in lead in the old days , yes they will kill sometimes , but the shot size is far too small. Its Like wise 3s were a good lead shot size for geese so step up to BBs or larger in steel. thought the problem was steel was less dense than lead and not the size of the shot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMatt1979 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 The problem (if you want to call it that) with steel is that its density has a marked effect the energy each pellet has (be it at the muzzle, 10 yards away, 30 yards away etc). Density along with volume form an items mass, I`ll avoid all the maths involved here, suffice to say, if your that interested PM me and I will try to explain further. so, for example no 3 shot in steel would have a mass of about 0.148 grams per pellet where as Hevi shot in the same size, assuming it to be perfectly spherical would have a mass of about 0.226 grams per pellet. The second part is that energy is made up of mass and velocity in the relationship of Energy = 1/2 x mass x velocity squared , so, reduce the mass and you reduce the energy. The same applies to velocity (although the change is magnified by it being squared) so, increase the energy the resultant change is to increase the energy. If you assume the velocity of shot at 30 yards is half the muzzle velocity the results are quite interesting. If we assume that all cartridges have the same velocity (lets say 1300 ft/sec) and we ignore their loads mass, lets just concentrate on one pellet in each, which we will also assume is the same size (diameter) in each cartridge regardless of material. Steel pellet would have a mass of about .148g giving an energy at 30 yards of 3.36 Joules (or if you like 2.48 ft/lbs) Lead pellet would have a mass of about .213g giving an energy at 30 yards of 4.86 Joules (or if you like 3.58 ft/lbs) Hevi Shot pellet would have a mass of about .226g giving an energy at 30 yards of 5.14 Joules (or if you like 3.79 ft/lbs) Sooooooooo Hevi Shot has 153% the energy of steel and 106% the energy of lead at 30 yards. Does anyone know the minimum energy required for a clean kill? If so please do post then at least it gives an idea of weather steel is really that good and if so at what kind of range. If anyone is interested I`m quite happy to share my calculation spreadsheet that all this comes frmo, just PM me or post and I`ll send it on. Matty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 I have shot a few close geese with steel 3s when duck shooting , but I have yet to find a realy effective shop bought steel shell for geese. When going for geese with steel shells I would not like to use anything smaller than 1s and BB or BBB are much better in 3 inch or 3.5 inch loads. For anything over 40 yards you will need tunstun matrex in 3s 1s or BBs or hevi shot in 4s or 3s. To use 3s for geese would be like using 6s in lead in the old days , yes they will kill sometimes , but the shot size is far too small. Its Like wise 3s were a good lead shot size for geese so step up to BBs or larger in steel. good advice, i use 6mm in a 3 1/2 inch 10 bore load Geese take some stopping! I have tried many home and shop loads in the past and find biggest is bestest, plz dont rant on about 1oz of 3s in the head will kill anything cause in field terms up to yer t1ts in mud with cold hands and rain in yer face it dont happen like that, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 You are getting far too scientific about this. The minimum energy required for a clean kill depends on so many factors. I use 3 1/2" Remingtom Hi Speed steel in BB's and 2's steel shot for most of my wildfowling. I have shot some geese at 25 yards and some at 35 yards and some of the close ones have been runners and some of the longer range ones have been dead in the air. What you need is confidence in whatever cartridge you choose, just don't go undergunned as a goose is a big bird that takes some stopping. My advice would be to use a heavy load of large shot that is suitable for your gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 The problem (if you want to call it that) with steel is that its density has a marked effect the energy each pellet has (be it at the muzzle, 10 yards away, 30 yards away etc). Density along with volume form an items mass, I`ll avoid all the maths involved here, suffice to say, if your that interested PM me and I will try to explain further. so, for example no 3 shot in steel would have a mass of about 0.148 grams per pellet where as Hevi shot in the same size, assuming it to be perfectly spherical would have a mass of about 0.226 grams per pellet. The second part is that energy is made up of mass and velocity in the relationship of Energy = 1/2 x mass x velocity squared , so, reduce the mass and you reduce the energy. The same applies to velocity (although the change is magnified by it being squared) so, increase the energy the resultant change is to increase the energy. If you assume the velocity of shot at 30 yards is half the muzzle velocity the results are quite interesting. If we assume that all cartridges have the same velocity (lets say 1300 ft/sec) and we ignore their loads mass, lets just concentrate on one pellet in each, which we will also assume is the same size (diameter) in each cartridge regardless of material. Steel pellet would have a mass of about .148g giving an energy at 30 yards of 3.36 Joules (or if you like 2.48 ft/lbs) Lead pellet would have a mass of about .213g giving an energy at 30 yards of 4.86 Joules (or if you like 3.58 ft/lbs) Hevi Shot pellet would have a mass of about .226g giving an energy at 30 yards of 5.14 Joules (or if you like 3.79 ft/lbs) Sooooooooo Hevi Shot has 153% the energy of steel and 106% the energy of lead at 30 yards. Does anyone know the minimum energy required for a clean kill? If so please do post then at least it gives an idea of weather steel is really that good and if so at what kind of range. If anyone is interested I`m quite happy to share my calculation spreadsheet that all this comes frmo, just PM me or post and I`ll send it on. Matty Makes sense...so more steel is needed basically Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 Makes sense...so more steel is needed basically NO! What is needed is to know the limitations of your chosen cartridge. Just because hevi shot has 153% of the energy of steel it doesn't mean you can shoot geese at 45 - 50 yards with it. Virtually every shot you ever take on the shore will be different, as Pavman has said you will have your feet stuck in the mud, the birds will be at an odd angle, you will not see them until the last minute at half light ETC ETC the list just goes on and on. I know that with my Extrema and 3 1/2" Remington Hi speed steel bb's or 2's that anything that comes within 35 -40 yards is in the bag providing I do my bit right. If I took Hevishot with me (which I do from time to time) I would not think I could shoot anything out to 60 - 65 yards. Keep your distances sensible and a decent shot size and you will get your goose. Go undergunned or think you can shoot further than you really can and christmas dinner will have to be a frozen turkey from iceland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 NO! What is needed is to know the limitations of your chosen cartridge. Just because hevi shot has 153% of the energy of steel it doesn't mean you can shoot geese at 45 - 50 yards with it. Virtually every shot you ever take on the shore will be different, as Pavman has said you will have your feet stuck in the mud, the birds will be at an odd angle, you will not see them until the last minute at half light ETC ETC the list just goes on and on. I know that with my Extrema and 3 1/2" Remington Hi speed steel bb's or 2's that anything that comes within 35 -40 yards is in the bag providing I do my bit right. If I took Hevishot with me (which I do from time to time) I would not think I could shoot anything out to 60 - 65 yards. Keep your distances sensible and a decent shot size and you will get your goose. Go undergunned or think you can shoot further than you really can and christmas dinner will have to be a frozen turkey from iceland what weight of remingtons do you use in the extrema and what choke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 They are 1 3/8oz at 1550 fps and I use a cylinder choke. Anything else patterns too tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikee Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 The problem (if you want to call it that) with steel is that its density has a marked effect the energy each pellet has (be it at the muzzle, 10 yards away, 30 yards away etc). Density along with volume form an items mass, I`ll avoid all the maths involved here, suffice to say, if your that interested PM me and I will try to explain further. so, for example no 3 shot in steel would have a mass of about 0.148 grams per pellet where as Hevi shot in the same size, assuming it to be perfectly spherical would have a mass of about 0.226 grams per pellet. The second part is that energy is made up of mass and velocity in the relationship of Energy = 1/2 x mass x velocity squared , so, reduce the mass and you reduce the energy. The same applies to velocity (although the change is magnified by it being squared) so, increase the energy the resultant change is to increase the energy. If you assume the velocity of shot at 30 yards is half the muzzle velocity the results are quite interesting. If we assume that all cartridges have the same velocity (lets say 1300 ft/sec) and we ignore their loads mass, lets just concentrate on one pellet in each, which we will also assume is the same size (diameter) in each cartridge regardless of material. Steel pellet would have a mass of about .148g giving an energy at 30 yards of 3.36 Joules (or if you like 2.48 ft/lbs) Lead pellet would have a mass of about .213g giving an energy at 30 yards of 4.86 Joules (or if you like 3.58 ft/lbs) Hevi Shot pellet would have a mass of about .226g giving an energy at 30 yards of 5.14 Joules (or if you like 3.79 ft/lbs) Sooooooooo Hevi Shot has 153% the energy of steel and 106% the energy of lead at 30 yards. Does anyone know the minimum energy required for a clean kill? If so please do post then at least it gives an idea of weather steel is really that good and if so at what kind of range. If anyone is interested I`m quite happy to share my calculation spreadsheet that all this comes frmo, just PM me or post and I`ll send it on. Matty from memory the min required ft/lb is 3 -3.5, an american guy did lots of tests on staked out live fowl to test ranges and shot sizes mikee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMatt1979 Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 I fully agree. If you don`t have confidence in your cartridge and gun your at an immediate disadvantage! The purpose of the work was to illustrate that steel is effective at a SENSIBLE distance and that shot size has a huge bearing on the ability of it to penetrate/kill cleanly. To make another observation, at 30 yards the pellet would need to be #1 in steel to match the energy of a #3 lead pellet (assuming the same velocity and neglecting the effects of wind resistance/drag). Oh, and one other thing, you could be using a cannon ball for all it matters, if your not on target, your never going to hit anything!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 They are 1 3/8oz at 1550 fps and I use a cylinder choke. Anything else patterns too tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMatt1979 Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 Forgot to add, as the Dilbert video says "there is no cure. He`s destined for a life of social ineptitude. He`s going to be................. An engineer"!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 just a quick question are lyalvale 2 3/4 " shot size 3 steel any good for geese ? Many thanks Matt Are they allowed guns? Seriously; try them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 I have tried lyadale 3 inch shells and was very disapointed with the results compared with 3 inch gamebore and remington sportsman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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