Stalker_2 Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 Dammit, I got bitten yesterday and now it’s going to cost me. I borrowed a scatter gun and went pigeon shooting with a mate. The place was alive with them and they never stopped coming in…I can’t remember when I had so much fun with my clothes on. Anyway now I’m hooked I’ve got to get a good pigeon gun. I need advice since it’s a long time since I had one…and then it was mainly clays I shot. My mate was using a semi, which I have to say seemed easier to re-load in the confines of the hide when compared to the U/O I was using…of course it was probably was just me. :*) What barrel length and type of gun do you pigeon shooters go for? What are the pro’s and cons of the semi against the O/U? Can anyone recommend a good semi auto or O/U that won’t cost a fortune? Many thanks. Cheers all S_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 semi's are good becuase they dont have to be broken to reload, so can be reloaded in a smal place i.e a hide, however some will argue that it is quicker to reload an O/U. alot of it is down to personal prefferance, personally i dont get on with semi's the recoil seems to me to come in two lumps (from the action cycling) i realise this is such a quick action that i shouldnt be able to notice, but its just how i find it. where as an O/U comes in one short sharp lump of recoil, however on the 2nd barrel (top) you do get more muzle flip (a story for another time) so recoil in 2nd shot can be slightly different.....any way as i said its a personal thing, my advice....try them both, get out do some clays and try as many guns as you can for a good semi......unfortuantly they are quite expensive (im assuming your going new) i believe you can pick up a berreta 391 for the 900-1k mark quite easily, this semi is i would imagine the best selling one of the moment, and i have to say i like the one i use. as for good shotgun...again not cheap, you could go for a lanber thats in the £500 region, or you could go for (my personal choice) a miroku mk70 for about £750 what ever you get you want multi chokes, and barrel length is up to you, if its a general gun i would say go for 28" or 30" on an o/u another thing what ever gun you get try to make sure its chrome bored (means it wont get rotten if you dont clean it) and try to get one that is 3" magnum proofed, you never know when you might want to do a vermin day etc... i would recomend getting a 12G and not messing about with others (14,16,20), to be honest they all shot similar ammounts of lead so theres not much difference in felt recoil, just means with a 12 you have more lead in the air.....and a better chance of hitting stuff. nice to hear you got bitten by the bug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalker_2 Posted June 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 Thanks for the pointers Nick. I’ve picked up a new AL391 at a good price. It fits me and I can remove the magazine plug and put it on my FAC. I think I’ll try half choke since that what the experienced shooters use. I know what you mean regarding recoil, but as with everything it’s all give and take. Cheers S_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 nice choice, great guns, FAC shotgun sounds like fun half choke is a good idea, i wish i had started using it, unfortuantly my gun has fixed chokes, so im stuck with open and improved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 great post Nick, my only query is your comment on felt recoil 2nd barrel. "however on the 2nd barrel (top) you do get more muzle flip (a story for another time) so recoil in 2nd shot can be slightly different." Im trying to fathom how you found the 2B to give you a significant amount of flip that you mention it so . if you are aware of the differance then you cant be concentrating on the "target" /"bird" , if it bothers you so much as to post it , are you using to high a load or do you not have control of the front end enough . before i go further Nick im not picking on you ,im concerned that you'd notice it at all ,i beleive you shoot clays (previous posting) how do you cope with a pair, 2nd target recovery ,the mechanics of the higher mounted second or top barrel (levers fulcrum point and so on ) will be differant i grant you but extremely minimal . just curious Nick ,i instruct younger shooters so your comments interest me. can i hear the other side (a story for another time) PM if you wish Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 quite simply as im pretty sure most people are aware....i would think you are being as experianced as you are, that the 2nd barrel or top barrel is not in line with your shoulder like the bottom one, so you get muzle flip as the gun tries to push over your shoulder (as opposed to straight into it with the bottom) i certainly notice it with my 25 yr old baikal, im pretty sure its to do with the straight hand stock and it being such a flat shooting gun (comes up very flat..also a very short gun in the stock), it is also a very light gun, about 2/3rds your average 12g, all of these combine and i certainly do notice the mizzle flip on the 2nd shot, its not so much that it bothers me, and i even use low recoil carts (for clays) chevron low recoil 28g 8's (hull catridges) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 stalker 2, the beretta 391 is an excellent choice. i am sure that you will really like your new shotgun. i would definitely recommend the following base upon personal experience: keep the magazine cap clean and lubed with great regularity (the screw cap that you unscrew to remove the forearm and the barrel). the inside of these caps gets dirty with shooting and for whatever reason they tend to corrode and can rust up on the inside and they will bind on the threads. you have a super shotgun---this is just one small thing that needs regular attention. clean them out good with a good solvent, and lightly lube the inside of the cap where the enternal threads are. anyhow, you have what most consider to be one of the best gas semi autos ever made. congrats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 quite simply as im pretty sure most people are aware....i would think you are being as experianced as you are, that the 2nd barrel or top barrel is not in line with your shoulder like the bottom one, so you get muzle flip as the gun tries to push over your shoulder (as opposed to straight into it with the bottom) i certainly notice it with my 25 yr old baikal, im pretty sure its to do with the straight hand stock and it being such a flat shooting gun (comes up very flat..also a very short gun in the stock), it is also a very light gun, about 2/3rds your average 12g, all of these combine and i certainly do notice the mizzle flip on the 2nd shot, its not so much that it bothers me, and i even use low recoil carts (for clays) chevron low recoil 28g 8's (hull catridges) Now i see , if you look at the bottom gun in image neither barrel is in line with your shoulder but above in both ,hence the rise,looks like a large drop at heel ,Baikal are renound for light wood heavey recoil giving no mercy shotguns (had a single when i was your yute ,kicked like a mule :*) ) and yes the straight stock and major drop at heel will increase the rise ,i know its easy for me to say but have you looked at another gun to purchase for the future ?? im suprised you've actualy gotten used to that gun ,thanks for the reply Nick good luck with the kangaroo :( ,hopefuly you can get your hands on a better fitting gun soon Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 you would be supprised mate, it is short in the stock, which i do find an issue for clays, but its fine for the field, but it comes up better than any gun i have tried, i have like my father (who bought it for these qualities) very sloped shoulders, this means i require alot of drop, and this gun has so much that most people cant actually see the bead (LB being one). for now its a fine gun, i am on the market for a boring o/u gun with pistol grip, purely as a clay gun as i feel the baikal is far better suited to the field than alot of modern guns. im okay on clays with it, dont shoot amazingly dont shoot awfully. but i will be getting a new gun for clays (possibly pigeon if it makes enough difference) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalker_2 Posted June 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 Thanks for that deadeye. I christened it yesterday afternoon and I am very pleased with my choice…with the help of a certain knowledgeable young shooter on this forum. I’m glad you described the problem area in detail since in my genuine ignorance I just call it “the screwy bit on the end” This has got me a few sideways glances from other experienced shot gunners…but its worth it to see how nervous they get when I start to take a shot. Now for a bit of thread creep. Do you strip your gun after every outing or do you just pull the barrel through and lightly oil? Is grease the best lube for the working parts or Tri Flow? Cheers S_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRDS Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 Try a 1/4 external Teague in the 391, I have shot hundreds of crows with that set up an it fills them dead at impressive ranges but with a forgiving spread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 Thanks for that deadeye. I christened it yesterday afternoon and I am very pleased with my choice…with the help of a certain knowledgeable young shooter on this forum. I’m glad you described the problem area in detail since in my genuine ignorance I just call it “the screwy bit on the end” This has got me a few sideways glances from other experienced shot gunners…but its worth it to see how nervous they get when I start to take a shot. Now for a bit of thread creep. Do you strip your gun after every outing or do you just pull the barrel through and lightly oil? Is grease the best lube for the working parts or Tri Flow? Cheers S_2 if i am out on a nice bluebird day and i know that i am going to be shooting again in a day or two, i will just wipe the gun down with a soft rag and some quality gun oil. if my gun gets wet, or if the day is very humid, or if i am going to put it up and not use it for several weeks, i strip it down and thoroughly clean and lube it from stem to stern. p.s. as for the magazine cap, just keep it reasonably clean and lubed and you'll be fine. if you get caught in the rain (and no doubt you will) clean that little plonker diligently or it will seize on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalker_2 Posted June 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 (edited) Ok deadeye I’ll do just that thanks. JRDS sorry but I’m not sure exactly what a 1/4 external Teague is, is it a choke that you can buy separately rather than one of the fistful that comes with the gun? Cheers S_2 Edited June 9, 2005 by Stalker_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 (edited) its a choke that hangs out the end, im sure you will have seen one at the shop, its what you tend to see on trap guns, i believe they give a better pattern than an internal choke, (not so much that you should replace any internal chokes you have) in reality it does make a difference on paper and might get you one more bird every 100, but i would say its another mind game, my advice, which people are welcome to disagree with, would be that any new chokes you buy should be external chokes 'teague', but that if you allready have that choke....stick with the internal 1/4 choke as im sure youve probably come to your own ossumption, is simply a choke that is 1/4 choked (to be honest im not sure what the measurement is from) but the higher the fraction obviously the more dense and the smaller the pattern of shot (open being the largest and full being the smallest) i think beretta or someone does a chart which explains the order different names of chokes go in....will see if i can dig something up ------------------------ okay dug this out of the beretta site, and actually learnt something my self...extra full.........hmm might not bother getting one of those http://www.berettausa.com/product/product_proshop_main.htm JCOPN12 Extra Full JCOPN13 Full JCOPN03 Light Full JCOPN14 Improved Modified JCOPN15 Modified JCOPN05 Light Modified JCOPN16 Improved Cylinder JCOCN17 Skeet USA JCOPN18 Cylinder note that cylinder means open.....to my knoledge sorry cant find the 1/4 measurement equivilants Edited June 9, 2005 by dunganick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 this may help POINTS** INCHES AMERICAN shotgun choke EUROPEAN shotgun choke % of PATTERN in 30" CIRCLE at 40 YARDS 0 .000 Cylinder S 40% 5 .005 Skeet VZ 45% 10 .010 Improved Cylinder 1/4 50% 15 .015 Skeet #2 --- 55% 20 .020 Modified 1/2 60% 30 .030 Improved Modified 3/4 65% 35 .035 Full 1/1 70% 40 .040 Extra-Full --- 75% *Shotgun chokes specifications can vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. The above table is representative of typical values only. The only way to accurately determin your guns choke and patterning characteristics are to measure the bore choke relationaship, and pattern you gun with the desired shot-size/load. **Points are the actual physical measurement of choke in .001's (thousands of an inch). ***The 12ga, 16ga and 20ga are all patterned at 40 yards for choke evaluation. Both the 28ga, and the .410 are typically patterned at 30 yards. You can expect similar percentages at this shorter range. Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodeer Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 We sell them at work. www.greenfieldguns.com Throw very nice patterns and are a good price aswell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 Nick, that old Baikal looks like a Merkle. It certainly looks better than a modern Baikal. G.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 certainly is nicer than the modern ones, hand ingraved, fit and finish puts alot of modern guns to shame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalker_2 Posted June 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2005 That’s a lot of info guys and a great help. I tried to use a choke gauge but just confused myself. I never knew there were so many choke sizes. I’ve now been onto the Teague site and found this that explains it all in a language I understand...I think Cheers S_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted June 10, 2005 Report Share Posted June 10, 2005 Stalker, a choke gauge is basically a waste of time as it only tells you what the size of the muzzle is. The choke is determined by the amount of constriction not the size of the opening at the muzzle. If the gun has a .724 bore and the gauge shows half choke -.719 (10 thou’) constriction, then it would be wrong as the real choke would only be quarter choke with 5 thou’ constriction. Conversely if the bore was .734 and the gauge showed the same half choke of 10 thou’ constriction, then again it would be wrong as there would actually be 15 thou’ of constriction which would mean it had a three quarters choke. The only way to gauge choke is to have the bore measured and then to have the chokes measured, and then subtract the muzzle measurement from the bore measurement. 5 thou’=1/4 10 thou’=1/2 15 thou’-3/4 20 thou’=Full With all the other variations in between. G.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalker_2 Posted June 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 Ahh, the penny drops. Cheers S_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 Fire a cartridge that you will be using at a large sheet of paper(papersacks opened out are perfect)at a MEASURED 30 yds that will give you your pattern.Using a bit of wire make a 30" circle and place it central to the pattern,now you count the hits and compare it to the pattern tables to be found in the eley shooters diary or similar,that will tellyou what your cartridge and gun combination throws and is much more accurate than what is printed on the chokes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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