Time for a variation

[Sergeant]

Ok, I have had my fac since april, and decided its time to fill the cabinet up, so heres the shortlist.

.223, for foxes and other vermin and targets + moderator. will probably be a CZ

.243, foxes and other vermin + moderator. Probably a CZ

.308 targets

Poss muzzle loader as it also a muzzle loadr club.

Any other brands / calibres i should consider and how much ammo should i put for each?

 

Thanks in advance, Tom.

[sussex lad]

How about a .50 BMG i hear it a great vermin round!!!

[dunganick]

like i said a few days ago mate your not nessicarily going to get all of those, but it cant hurt to put them down

 

i would say what you have put down is about right and you couldnt really change much, i might swap the 308 for a 6.5x55 if i was in your shoes (which i near enough am) only becuase it suits my needs as a deer/fox gun better than a 308

 

but if you want a target rifle then you will find alot more in 308, so it wouldnt be a bad choice.

[Sergeant]

The only one in not sure about is the .243 my feo said when i asked when i got the land form that i wouldnt get it as there are no deer. Shouldnt i have problems with having the same reason for two different weapons?

ow muck ammo should i be putting down. I dont want to make the same mistake i did when i applied by not putting much ammo.

[Riothedog]

Save yourself a bundle and drop the .243. They are at the end of their performance for Deer and the .223 is more than adequate for foxes and other vermin.

 

Make sure that you cover each calibre for target shooting and foxes, other vermin and deer shooting (only use what' applicable). That way you can get expanding ammo on your ticket as well as the pointy stuff.

 

I was told by a dealer that .243 was the 'perfect' round for deer. Car dealers will tell you that this particular car is 'perfect' when they are trying to sell it. They can tell you all about it but they can't drive to save their lives! I ended up with a cheap Remington which I changed the stock, trigger and barrel on to make it perform and it cost me a fortune. I found that my .243 was better suited for lower weight bullets because at 100grains, you are at the volatile edge of it's performance. Better performance to be had with 80 - 90 grain bullets.

 

For deer, better to go for a 6.5 x 55 or .308 and use a softer load to get better performance.

 

Interior ballistics on the 6.5 and the .308 are better, less kick, ammo's about the same price - especially if you load your own - exterior ballistics are better (legendary, that .308) with both bigger rounds being flatter trajectory wise and terminally, the 6.5 and the .308 will do a far better job on deer than a .243.

 

Having said that, there is no deader than dead and my .243 took out loads of roe and fallow but, I find my Tikka 6.5 gives me even more confidence and it works straight out of the box - so much cheaper than a doctored Remington. The .308 Steyr I use for targets now as the Tikka does such a good job with everything else. Don't bother with the T3 though, build quality of a Trabant. Masters are so much better - get a secondhand one.

 

If you want a different round to look at, try 25-06 , .243 Ackley Improved or any of the Winchester magnums which come in .223, .243 or .25. The improved version of the .243 and the WSSM both take the round up a level. The .25 looks peachy.

 

RTD

[Riothedog]

Oh - nearly forgot!

 

Moderators - absolutely, definatley.

 

Ammo. Ask to buy at least 500 and hold at least 700. Buy all your ammo out of the same batch and don't mix one batch with another. Change brands at your peril!

 

RTD

[Big Dog]

Sometime better to shoot well with 1 or 2 than average with a locker full

[Sargeant Bang]

Oh - nearly forgot!

 

Moderators - absolutely, definatley.

 

Ammo. Ask to buy at least 500 and hold at least 700. Buy all your ammo out of the same batch and don't mix one batch with another. Change brands at your peril!

 

RTD

Rio, good suggestion on calibre's I thought. The .243 can be too weak for Deer. 6.5 is always good. Funnily enough I've invested in .25-06 Rem which is fantastic. It's also a calibre, perhaps one of the few, which is legal for Deer in England and Scotland, all species, and yet is still just small enough for Fox (although arguably too much gun). A good all-rounder I reckon and along with your thoughts on Moderators you made some wise suggestions. I'd agree, he should drop the .243.

BTW: My T3 Lite seems more Ford Mondeo or even Vauxhall Omega than Trabant... to be fair mate. It's not a Saur or a Sako (Merc 320?), but then it's very light and not priced the same as those others. Also I'm not a professional ranger or keeper (Alas) so I can get away with a tad less quality than the £800-£1000 guns. Would you agree?

[Frank]

I have seen the .243 and 6.5 x 55 take many deer, fallow mainly.

The 6.5 allways knoked them down clean. The .243, especially with big fallow bucks, was more weaker, the bucks could run for 200yds, when lung shot, before droping dead. :*)

So from experience on the 2 calibers, my vote would be the 6.5 x55. :( Makes a good fox caliber too, with the right loads.

 

If your a fox man only and as you said with no deer on your bit of ground, then the .223 is an excellent choice, have just got one myself, a CZ and love it.

Edited September 16, 2005 by Frank

[dunganick]

Sako (Merc 320

:<

 

thats a completely unfair comparison, mercades are built with the same precision and care as a dustbin, which slowly is where they end up.

 

sako although now using more plastic, is still a very high quality manufactuer, easily as good as sauer, mauser, blaser and all of those high quality makes.

 

also note that sako make tikka's so the tikka is manufactured with the same care as a sako, even if the plastics used are not very nice.

[deadeye ive]

So from experience on the 2 calibers, my vote would be the 6.5 x55. Makes a good fox caliber too, with the right loads.

 

If your a fox man only and as you said with no deer on your bit of ground, then the .223 is an excellent choice, have just got one myself, a CZ and love it.

About 4.30am Thurs morning i shot a fox right between its eyes from a distance of 145 std paces as this was how the Fox presented himself to me and i could'nt change the angle for a side on body shot either as i was already casting a silohette.the ammo was .223 55grn nosler ballistic tip. There was nothing left of the back of his head ,brains gone along with its eyes which no doubt were sucked out as a result of the vacuum created by the fragmented bullet,all that was left was ears and a snout.

I dread to think what a 6.5mm full loaded round will do :( and i'm not being disrepectful to anyone especially you Frank but this is no Fox Calibre unless your prepared to put the remains in several bin bags.

 

 

People on this Forum rave on about the .243 as a Fox round ,,,,,,,,,,,,Well i can tell you first hand the damage caused by a .223 rd and i for one can't see a justified reason to go for a larger calibre, Deer yes but not Foxes.

 

 

I apologise first hand if my brief but graphic description offends.I have a photo and maybe one day when my nephew visits i might upload it.

 

 

Ive

[dunganick]

I dread to think what a 6.5mm full loaded round will do  and i'm not being disrepectful to anyone especially you Frank but this is no Fox Calibre unless your prepared to put the remains in several bin bags.

 

i have to disagree (well its fun )

 

i ask you this;

 

do you eat the foxes you shoot

 

do you sell the pelt

 

do you believe that a cartridge that delievers the results that would mean you have to "put the remains in several bin bags" would be inhumaine

 

do you want the fox to die humainly (not saying that these results are required to kill humainly)

 

do you think the farmer cares about any of the above mentioned points

 

i expect you will come to the correct conclusion that it dosent matter if you pick the fox up with a vacum, if teh fox is dead its dead, unless you eat it or intend to sell the pelt then i dont see what the problem is with this type of destruction.

 

now i am biast i do most of my foxing with the 6.5, and have found it to be very effective, it is flat shooting, delievers its dose very well, never gets any runners and is a fine foxing round.

 

in my opinion if you had to have one round to shoot everything in the UK the 6.5 would be the round to go for.

 

sorry if i come across as arogant, but alot of people seem to have a problem with foxes being blown to bits, and if you dont go hanging them up on your town libary doors after you shot them, i dont see what the problem is.

[deadeye ive]

sorry if i come across as arogant, but alot of people seem to have a problem with foxes being blown to bits, and if you dont go hanging them up on your town libary doors after you shot them, i dont see what the problem is.

DID I SAY I HAD A PROBLEM WITH FOXES BEING BLOWN TO BITS :< ...........Because i don't

 

People with NO CTR fire experience read this forum for advice ..............I am mearly pointing out that you DON'T always need a SLEDGEHAMMER to crack a walnut.

 

 

A .223 kills just as humanely ,,,,,,,,,,,,,you should try it sometime Nick

[dunganick]

ah dont like things that big, preffer the hornet and 222

 

only use the 6.5 becuase my dad is using the 222 and the 243 has no bipod, and the hornet isnt suitable for all fields

 

sorry i mis interprited your post my appologies, seems we had a similar point to make.

 

but if you had to have just one centerfire (say you didnt have much money and could only afford one rifle for deer and fox, i would have the 6.5 over the 243.

 

243 is a fine round, but the 6.5 is an even finer round

[deadeye ive]

I have the impression that most folks ventre into the Ctr Range with a .243 on the understanding that they might want to shoot Deer in England /Wales as well .

In reality they end up with a very loud fox gun and probably have only shot deer on the odd occasion so the gun they've purchased is'nt really suitable for neither as an experienced shooter will probably have his fox and deer gun seperate calibres .

I bought my .223 rifle 18 mths ago and was initialy looking at second hand but they were like rocking horse **** ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,However .243s and 22/250 were in abundance in the Midlands area ............Kinda says something dose'nt it.

 

Cheers Ive

[deadeye ive]

do you believe that a cartridge that delievers the results that would mean you have to "put the remains in several bin bags" would be inhumaine

 

 

do you think the farmer cares about any of the above mentioned points

I missed this earlier NICK

 

 

I imagine a farmer would be VERY CONCERNED especially if he as livestock on his land like sheep and cattle .Seeing the results of a Fox blown to bits won't install confidence in fact it'll highlight doubt in your ability .

What i mean to say is surely something must go through the farmers mind when your shooting at FOXES with that kind of power in your hands .

 

 

WHAT IF YOU MISS LETS SAY ........Does he know you always allow for a backstop.

It does'nt present the right image i'm afraid :(

 

 

Ive

[dunganick]

im yet to come across a farmer who cares about what happens as long as the fox is dead. i shoot a few thousand acres for foxes on about 6 different pieces of land, and none of the farmers are bothered, i wouldnt go leaving the body in the field (thats just asking for a memebr of the public to see it) but if you sling it in a hedge then no body cares. in my experiance most of the farmers are shooters and most of them are well traveled enough for the destruction of a fox, even if it is cut in half, not to bother them.

 

how out of intrest does the balistic characteristcs of the round you use in your rifle portray your level of compedence. just because the gun is large and does about 15% more damage than a 222 dosent mean that your anyless safe.

 

WHAT IF YOU MISS LETS SAY ........Does he know you always allow for a backstop.

It does'nt present the right image i'm afraid   

 

simple....he dosent have to, if i ever intentially took a shot without a backstop i would stop shooting. risking someone elses life for a foxes just dosent bare thinking about.

 

i will not take a shot without a backstop and this is not changed by the callibre i use.

[deadeye ive]

how out of intrest does the balistic characteristcs of the round you use in your rifle portray your level of compedence. just because the gun is large and does about 15% more damage than a 222 dosent mean that your anyless safe.

It does'nt Nick

 

 

I imagine you shoot mainly with your dad present when using this calibre and your BOTH well known to the landowners.

 

Try for a minute imagining being not so well known and going out on your own lets say and the landowner wants to see the results (it does happen ) Do you think he'll be impressed ??

Once again when i type my replies i have the novices /newcomers to CTR FIRE POWER IN MIND and if i'm guilty of anything then it is the fact that you don't need to blow things to bits to GUARANTEE a HUMANE KILL!

 

I have nothing more to say

 

 

CHEERS Ive

[Sergeant]

This is certainly turning in to an interesting debate.

In my opinion blowing a fox to bits IS a tad extreme, but I would like to have somthing that I am confident would stop them. Personally I wouldnt consider that a rimfire round would deliver that sort of one shot stop EVERY TIME on a fox, but would be perfectly adequate for somthing smaller, hence my considering the .223

I have decide to drop the .243, after enquiring about the cost of ammo, £1.20 a bang is a bit steep for shooting foxes.

My only experience with center fires is range work, lots of .223 and a bit of .308

so any in the field feedback is welcome.

[dunganick]

£1.20 is a bit steep, 243 factory is nowhere near that ammount, about the most expensive ammo me and my dad use is 6.5, and if we used hornady ammo that would be £1 a pop. i would imagine (never used 243 factory) that it would be in the region of 60 - 80p.

 

 

i can see your point about the farmer wanting a demonstration, but i think the point that is being missed here is, the 6.5 is destructive, but not a whole load more than the 222 and certainly no more than the 243. like ai said its about 15% more damage than the 222, and i dont know about what load your 223 uses, but i know our 222 blows a good 3-4 inch exit hole out, so thats well destructive and only a few inches short of the 5-6 inch exit hole of the 243/6.5

 

at the end of the day different people have different approaches to their sport, i would never change any of the loads in the guns to give a less destructive result, becuase quite simply there is not a better load for the job, even if the result is messy.

 

lets leave it at that

[ROB REYNOLDS UK]

we use the .223 on foxs but the .204 is so sweet to shoot far better than the .222 .223 .22.250 and theres no kick ,flat flying out to 300 yrds ,what a tool it is , its the new round for them foxs ,i bet i could do head shots with this gun out to 150yrds every time its that easy to shoot and you get to see the foxs drop in the scope and with the PES moderator on to keep the sound down..30-06 is he rifle to have on the big red deer they dont run when hit with one of theses too much on the roe and fellow though i would say .270 is about right as a all rounder pic is of the .204 its a remmy 700 with PES mod fitted its the best your going to find for them foxs ,crows ,ect on par with the 22-250 and 220 swift 4,000 fps

Edited September 22, 2005 by ROB REYNOLDS UK

[ROB REYNOLDS UK]

the guns not mine by the way B) :thumbs: i wish sorry about the pic but it was really dark that night

[Frank]

Hi Rob Reynolds.

I had a .204 for 6 months. I could only get hold of 32 grain v.max and 40 grain v.max factory ammo.

As we cant reload over here in Southern Ireland, i was limited. :thumbs:

The 40 grain v.max would not group in my Ruger M77 MKII.

The 32 grain v.max did.

The 32s tended to blow up on shoulder shots and cause crater wounds , needing a second shot .

Id say if you can reload for this round, it would be magic. B) .

I now have a .223 and love it.

Great looking rifle in the pic.