Pinkfooty

I wish to hell that I knew whether "Dr Tom" was Dr Tom W. or Dr Tom C. Does anyone know.? It would certainly shape the level of politeness with which I replied! But seriously, this is all about how the wide and varied range of advice that BASC Council gets from its advisory committees, staff and many other soureces is then translated by the elected Council into BASC policy. Do not lose sight of the fact that, despite the committee minute leaked by a mole to Shooting Times, BASC Council policy is still to oppose any attempts to further restrict the use of lead shot. That is why it is so crucially important to elect to BASC Council the sort of people who will listen to your views and fight for your rights. It is still not too late to vote this year. Even if you have lost the ballot paper that came with the last issue of Shooting and Conservation, you can still vote online on the BASC website. Please do so and vote for Lee Freeston and David de Gernier. Neither of those guys will allow the wool to be pulled over their eyes by a load of pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo. Please vote now!

Guys, Guys, Guys..... Can we please get this issue into perspective. Here are some facts: 1. There are a number of groups who think that the use of lead ammunition may cause problems. (The Food Standards Agency and the RSPB, to name but two.) These groups raise the matter in official circles (as is their right and, some would say, their duty). 2. When potentially serious issues are raised by powerful or official groups, the appropriate government agencies are duty-bound to investigate. So DEFRA sets up an advisory panel. John Swift of BASC is appointed to chair this group. 3. The editorial comment in a shooting magazine suggests that this perhaps indicates that BASC is not totally committed to opposing further restrictions on the use of lead ammunition. It was that editorial that set this particular hare running for the past couple of weeks on this forum and on others (to say nothing of the pages of that magazine). 4. BASC responds by restating its policy - that it is totally opposed to further restrictions on the use of lead ammunition. 5. The ban on lead shot for wildfowling (which BASC fought hard against for a very long time) was eventually introduced without there being a scrap of scientific evidence to suggest that the conservation status of any species was adversely affected by the ingestion of lead shot deposited by normal levels of wildfowling on tidal estuaries in the UK. So we know that government decisions are not always based on objective evidence. So - what better way of trying to ensure that the unwarranted ban on lead shot for wildfowling is not repeated for other types of shooting, than to have the Chief Executive of BASC - an organisation totally opposed to further restrictions - in the Chair of the official DEFRA advisory panel? Would the people of Pigeon Watch, who have been slagging off BASC on this issue, really prefer that the official DEFRA group was chaired by a representative of the RSPB or FSA? Come on guys, wake up and smell the coffee.

Last issue was the March/April one. It had a picture of a woodcock (or was it a snipe? Can't quite remember) on the cover. Next issue should be out early May. The reason I don't still have it is that I always take my BASC magazines to the barber's shop or the dentist's waiting room when I go so that they get more widely read. The BASC magazine really is a superb way of spreading a positive image of shooting amongst the general public.

At least edit that sentence out of your posting.

David will correct me if I am wrong but I think there is a cast iron guarantee that any delay in processing your renewal will not affect the continuity of your insurance cover. (I know that insurance is the least of the reasons for being a member of BASC but it is the only one that you need to ensure continuity of.)

Just a wee factual comment on that. I agree that it is unlikely that many birds would pick up lead pellets and eat them as food. That has never been stated as part of the problem. Birds can ingest lead shot in two main ways: 1. By picking the pellets up with grit. Birds need grit. They don't use it as food it but it gets used in their crops to grind down food. Lead pellets amongst that grit get ground down themselves and the lead residues get into the gut and, hence, into the bloodstream. Tiny amounts of lead in the blood can be fatal. 2. By eating carrion that is carrying lead pellets, e.g. rabbits that have been shot an left (Lesson: never, never leave any shot animal carcass where it can be found by a scavenger) or pheasants, woodpigeons, ducks, etc., that have been wounded, not retrieved and later die. There is no doubt whatsoever that both these causes can lead to fatalities in birds. What we need to be able to show, by sound research, is that the numbers being killed by lead poisoning are insignificantly small and do not endanger the conservation status of any species. When the Greg Mudge et al research was used to justify a ban on lead shot over wetlands, my recollection is that it only proved that some water birds were dying as a result of having lead shot in their gizzards. If there is a move to place further bans on lead ammunition, we need more rigorous research and, as I say, only accept further restrictions on lead ammunition if it can be shown, beyond reasonable doubt, that the conservation status of species are threatened. (On the basis of observation, I doubt if it is - the most likely species to be affected by eating lead shot with carrion is the buzzard and their numbers are increasing, not decreasing.)

I think you will find that Bushwear were supporting BASC in a number of ways long before Alisdair was put forward for election. Any member is entitled to stand for election. If they are elected, they have to declare, at the start of every meeting, whether they have any business interest in any of the items for discussion and, if they have, they do not take part in that discussion. I bet, whether or not he is elected, BASC continues to get more from Bushwear than Bushwear gets from BASC. It's not as if BASC will pay for a mortgage on a second home or fund holidays in Belize.

Christopher, I think that this hare might have been set running by your old friend the editor of a certain weekly shooting magazine. Grrrr!

Gun and Dog Weekend and Scottish Big Bore Clay Shoot The East of Scotland wildfowling club is holding its Gun and Dog Weekend on 22nd and 23rd May 2010 at Balbirnie Estate, Fife. On the Saturday there will be a 50-bird sporting shoot for members and their friends. On the same day the club will be staging the 2nd Scottish Big Bore Clay Shoot which is open to all BASC members using 10, 8 or 4-bore shotguns. The following day will be the club's Gundog Fun Day which consists of an informal working test, geared towards the wildfowling dog, and a series of training demonstrations. Further details of those events may be obtained from David de Gernier on info@scottish-wildfowling.org.uk or 01307 818080

Although you can vote for up to 5 candidates, you do not need to vote for 5. In effect, any vote for a candidate other than those you positively want elected are votes against them. In my case I shall be casting two votes only - for Lee Freeston and David de Gernier. I have known Lee for many years. He is currently chairman of the Wildfowling Liaison Committee and has done great work for wildfowling, often against the odds. David is secretary of the East of Scotland Wildfowling Club and has huge experience of negotiating with government departments. Both these guys will put in hundreds of hours of effort for all shooting sportds, especially those of "the ordinary working man". Importantly neither will cow-tow to the staff at Marford Mill or give any undue weight to the "posh" end of the sport who tend to get a greater voice than they deserve. To maintain shooting as an all-inclusive sport that anyone can get access to, I seriously recommend that you consider giving your votes to Lee Freeston and David de Gernier. And remember that if you lost the ballot paper that came with the magazine, you can vote online on the BASC website On this Forum you read a lot of complaints about BASC. They are not always justified but the surest way of changing BASC to be the organisation you want, is to vote for "ordinary shooters" like David and Lee. If you don't vote, you lose any right to complain if you don't like what the organisation does.

Sometime a real beauty appears. I think you meant "insightful". Or maybe you actually did mean "inciteful". :unsure: .

It ended yesterday morning at midnight. But please continue to show restraint and give the birds a proper chance to recover.

Given the very biased slant given by Shooting Times, I think they need to hear, in mass, from three groups: 1. Game shooters who would rather pay a bit more for their birds than carry on in the knowledge that their low prices were subsidised by inhumane rearing practices. 2. Wildfowlers and pigeon shooters, who are worried that inhumane rearing practices in the game shooting sector will lead to further general public opposition to the entire shooting spectrum. 3. Those many small game farmers who are bound to be put out of business if they continue to face competition from a small handful of large operators who can cut costs by using inhumane rearing methods. It seems to me that only BASC is thinking about the long-term future of shooting sports while the other organisations have been blinkered by those who are chasing short-term profits. So get writing to Shooting Times lads.

Try Mark Robson. He's a PigeonWatch member.

That is true to an extent. But it is less likely that someone will publish a shooting book without someone else checking his facts before it is printed. So you can be reasonably sure you are getting correct information, or at least a well-researched point of view. The problem with the internet is that there is no check upon what people write. You will get some great information and thoughtful opinion. You will also find a huge amount of incorrect information and prejudice. (Sorry - had to edit this sentence. The profanity filter substituted a row or asterisks for the word I wrote which had an s followed by an h followed by an i followed by a t and ending in an e.) Telling them apart is not always easy.

It is expected to end at midnight on Monday but there has not yet been any official confirmation of that. Birds do not recover condition overnight, of course, and BASC will still expect its members to show continued restraint where conditions warrant it. This is the latest from the BASC Scottish Office: "Naturally, if the suspension is lifted on Monday we would still expect every (member) to show additional restraint if required, particularly with woodcock in some of the eastern locations."

Wow. There are about three different offences there. I don't know what the maximum penalty is for each of them but if the offender could persuade the Court that it was a genuine error of identification and that he had a legal right to be where he was at the time with his shotgun, then he might get away with the loss of his certificate and a fine of a few hundred £££s. On the other hand, if the Court considered that he had deliberately done it, it would almost certainly mean a couple of years in the clink.

It's definitely for sport, rather than purely for pest control. That's why it can be fairly expensive if you have to "buy" it rather than having informal arrangements with local farmers. The woodpigeon bit is a bit tricky. Strictly speaking you are not allowed to "enjoy" the sport of shooting them as the General Licences under which they can be shot does specify that the reason is pest control. But you do not have to prove that they were about to do damage at the exact location or at the exact time that you shot them, so shooting them while you are roughshooting is perfectly legal.

Several good points on this thread but also several serious misconceptions. BASC has never claimed to represent all shooters. Primarily it is concerned with those sports that involve shotguns or sporting rifles for shooting live quarry. When you do a real analysis of how many people regularly engage in those sports, it is a much lower figure than is commonly imagined. When you exclude those people who use a gun as a working tool and those who keep a gun just so that they can take up the odd invitation to a posh shoot (in the same way that they might take up an invitation to play a round of golf at a posh club), I reckon we are talking about a maximum of 250,000 keen sporting live quarryshooters in UK. So, with 130,000 members, BASC already has more than half in membership. Secondly, the concept of a "single voice" for all fieldsports is often suggested. That is simply not practicable. Certainly the various organisations should work together when they can - and there are lots of examples where they have done that - but there are also many potential conflicts and differences where the interests of one group will be directly opposed to the interests of another. In game shooting, for example, the interests of the commercial operator are often hugely detrimental to the interests of the ordinary local shooter. The example given further up the thread of the interests of professional pest controllers being very different to the interests of the sporting pigeon shooter. Another current example - the interests of some game farmers is contrary to what we believe is important for the credibility of sporting shooters who place huge value on respecting the welfare of their quarry. This thread started off by referring to what Conor O'Gorman wrote in Sporting Shooter. It is virtually a full-time job for him just co-ordinating the responses that BASC has to make to all the consultations that take place every year. Behind him, there is a whole team of people who have to supply the data and information necessary for those responses. And there are dozens of such consultations that affect sporting shooting every year. BASC is the only organisation that is even remotely equipped to do this work on our behalf. It is also the only organisation that will put the needs of the sporting shooter top of its priorities without having to also cater for conflicting views or conflicting sports or conflicting commercial activities. Maybe David BASC could pass on to Conor our appreciation for what he does on our behalf.

Rough shooting is non-driven game shooting, i.e. shooting grouse, pheasants, partridges, woodcock, snipe, etc by walking them up rather than having them driven towards standing Guns. It can vary from one or two friends renting the shooting rights on a farm or two and walking up field margins, hedges and ditches for wild game, through to syndicates of 6 - 8 Guns rearing and releasing game and organising semi-formal walking days. A lot of roughshooters would also see rabbits and woodpigeons as an important addition to their quarry list, rather than strictly sticking to game birds. In my opinion, roughshooting is the next best thing to wildfowling.

I made the mistake of taking the easy route and just using the BASC wording in my e-mails to my MP and candidates. Unfortunately the wording of the various options is not very clever. My sitting MP (Gordon Banks, Lab) simply replied to say that he was best described by "Option 2" which says, "I am supportive of some aspects of legal shooting sports but have reservations in one or more areas" Unfortunately it does not say which "one or more areas" he has reservations about. Killing live birds, I suspect. Or maybe unlicensed airguns. Although he is not a veggie - he goes to the same Burns supper as me every year and tucks into his haggis. So if you still have to send your requests, maybe change the wording to be more specific, rather than being lazy like me.

There are already a lot of guys from NI (and also the south) come over for fairs on this side of the water. The CLA is, of course, the "big one"; a lot bigger than any of the others and you really need the full three days to see it all. The Midland is another good one but it only runs for two days. Popular with the NI guys is the Scottish Fair at Scone which is another 3-day event. There is also a much smaller fair in Dumfries & Galloway which is handy for the Larne or Belfast ferries.

A number of English wildfowling clubs have already closed their marshes because of local weather conditions. Check on the Wildfowling Forum for announcements by individual clubs.

Official notice from Scottish Government is here: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2010/01/31082612

Ban now official. 3rd January 2010…….……………………………………………….immediate release The shooting of certain bird species is to be suspended in Scotland for the first time in 13 years because of the prolonged spell of snow and ice. From 9.00am on Tuesday 5th of January it will become illegal to shoot ducks; including reared mallard; geese, woodcock, snipe and golden plover. The suspension could last for up to two weeks, but should be reviewed after seven days if there is an improvement in conditions. The last such suspension was in January 1997 and covered the whole of Great Britain. The last suspension in Scotland alone was in 1993. Dr Colin Shedden, director of the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC) Scotland said: "The legal suspension of the shooting of wildfowl and wading birds is applied in order to offer extra protection when an extended period of severe weather is likely to disrupt the birds' feeding and roosting patterns. Hunters in Scotland have been under advice to exercise extra restraint in shooting these birds since Boxing Day." Following agreed criteria, Minister for Environment, Roseanna Cunningham has today signed an order under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 which will bring the suspension into force from the 5th of January. The legal suspension is introduced on the fifteenth day of severe weather, according to data collected at coastal weather stations by the Meteorological Office. ENDS NOTES to Editors: When a protection order is signed, it becomes an offence to kill or take any of the following species, whether on the coast or inland: Ducks: mallard, teal, wigeon, pintail, tufted duck, pochard, shoveler, gadwall, goldeneye. Geese: greylag, pink-footed, Canada. Waders: golden plover, woodcock, snipe. Others: moorhen and coot. Game birds are not affected, but reared duck are included. NB: Shooting geese for crop protection during any statutory suspension period is also prohibited unless it is otherwise permitted by licence. Any such shooting should be conducted so as to minimise disturbance to other wildfowl.