kitchrat

Further to the thread about picking all dead birds and my thread about crop loss/damage when shooting over swarthed rape, how would the farmer feel if he was often cleaning 2-3-week-dead pigeons out of the stone trap on his combine??? I know my farmers would be pee'd off.......... I say, leave the field as you found it, no decaying bodies, no empty cartridges to upset anyone. It's hard enough to get shooting perms, don't rock the boat!! Don't forget, word of mouth farmer to farmer is SO important.!!! Pee one off, you pee off all his neighbours too.

I have never shot over swathed rape because I can't see that it's in the farmer's interest - surely dead birds crashing into the rows of crop when it has got crispy-dry will knock out more seed than they can ever eat?? They only feed on it when it is crispy and you can't aim to drop them between the rows like you can with laid barley. I suspect my Farmers would do their nuts!! What do you Guys think? Incidentally, watching the Tour de France go through my hunting grounds in Essex today I could see almost no laid crops and the harvest didn't look unusually advanced, as you have led me to believe (I'm on holiday!)

I quite know how you feel!! I have access to large areas of peas, sprouting to various heights and only a small bunch of pigeons seem to care. I spent 6 hours shooting 29 on Monday, now they have all gone. Previous week I had 25 in 5 hours on drilled linseed, again, horribly slow. However, I was glad to have those 2 chances, after being laid up by my hip repair. Now there is a gas gun on the linseed and no pigeons on the peas. The peas might offer the odd pie (8 birds = a pie for 2 days for me and Mrs Kitchmouse) but nothing much until harvest. Then the cultivator will follow right behind the combine, the pheasants will be in the pens and it will be frustration again. Birds are in very short supply here on average but there do seem to be some busy pockets in Norfolk, somewhere. But how to find them, and get permission? I shall go and hunt geese and ducks in the fall in Canada - same game, same problems, bigger scale, before coming back to do some beating and protect some OSR. But never give up!!!

Birds using trees?? Don't tell Motty!! He'll have a baby!!

Fair play, I was the same with my hip operation!! Back shooting now so I've given up wasting my breath... (typing)

Just goes to show how different things are in different areas! Over here beans are of no interest either.

100% agree!

100% agree!

I had promised myself not to get involved with these little squabbles any more but this is an interesting one and, if nothing more, shows the inflexibility of some PW members. However, it was not that that tempted me back on a 1-off basis, I want to know how you know it is the same pigeon from Tesco that flares away from you in the field?? I certainly have "tame" pigeons round here, pointing my crutches at them when they are 15 yards away only makes them coo, a mile up the road in the fields I only have to move an eyebrow and they are flaring away. Same bird?? I doubt it!! Over and out (again!)

You're not wrong there!! My excuse for getting involved in the slanging matches is that I've been laid up with a hip replacement for the last 5 weeks, so slanging on PW makes a change from watching antiques, home repair and cooking programmes on TV. However, I was fit enough to get out yesterday, (disappointing 14 but with my leg handicaps that's OK) - (don't tell my surgeon), so I can get back to real life now!! Over and out!! Kitchrat

It's the huge numbers of pigeons I find had to believe, although things are less bad down here now and I've seen the odd blue field!!!

Ho Ho!!

Super!! I DREAM of having days like that. (Lead or steel)

Good, sensible post, may be beyond some member's comprehension!! (Mine inc??)

I think I agree with a lot of what you say...

Then it would be night, not morning!!

Excellent post, many thanks for backing me up, support from a thinking shooter who has to face the lead ban is very valuable!! Many thanks!!

Super-interesting Penelope! I can't help thinking it shows what it set out to show and a couple of things surprise me - halving the lead at close range at skeet for a 15% muzzle velocity increase Surely at close range most of the lead you need is for personal reaction time, hammer dropping, detonator ingnition and charge ignition/expansion. The muzzle-target time difference must be negligable. Also, they could use Improved modified (3/4) and full chokes, we're not supposed to. Living as I do much of the year in Canada, many of my comments come from local hunter's experience as well as mine. I admit to not have practised at the sporting clays range, but will this year!!

Thank you for your (presumably) well-considered reply. This applies to "Pestcontrol1" too. The killing power of shot depends on it's kinetic energy, given by the formula E = 1/2(m times v squared), where E is the enegry, m is the mass and v is the velocity. E being proportional to v squared means that if you halve the velocity, the energy is reduced bya factor of 4. So we need a good high v and need to preserve v. V is preserved by the momentum, m x v, but reduced by wind resistance. The only way to do keep mv high is to increase m, either by using a dense material (lead) or by using a bigger pellet. The bigger pellet is, to some extent, self defeating because it becomes larger and therefore increases the wind resistance. A larger pellet will also penetrate less well, (try stabbing a raw potato with the sharp end then the blunt end of a pencil!) Larger pellets mean less pellets for the same load, increasing the pellet count will reduce v unless you use more propellent. Less pellets means a less dense pattern, so at higher ranges you are less likely to hit a lethal point and kill cleanly. You can improve pellet density by using a tighter choke, but not with steel. It seems you are using tight choke, I don't know why we shouldn't but that's what the manufacturers tell me. So, with steel shot at higher range, you end up with, slower. less dense, less energetic pellets in a less dense pattern. Not the sort of thing a sporting shooter should want to do. George D can kill birds at massive ranges because: a) he is the world's best shot b) He's using good fast lead shot c) He's using extra full choke d) he's getting the bird in the middle of the pattern In the USA, duck shooters are having to use steel, but have gone to 3 1/2 shells with magnum loads of 1 1/2 oz of, say No4 shot and good high velocities. They say this combination has partly overcome the handicap of steel but have had to reduce their range expectations too. I don't fancy shooting 200 of them in an afternoon!! The Eley lightning is a step in the right direction but to achieve the 1600 fsp velocity can exceed the proof pressures of most guns. (f you can get them) Most of the gun shops round here don't even stock steel, because they can't sell it. Finally. yes, if you learn to use steel (different leads I guess, less ambitious on range) I expect you can do quite well. So, that's my opinion, it may be different to yours but that doesn't make it wrong!! (or stupid)

Dead right, they are not the dead cert they used to be. Also, this year, less pigeons to go round. Near me there is 1 block of 450 acres of peas and another of about 70 acres. The 70, which I can't shoot, has 1000's+ pigeons on it, just up the road, my 450 acres are bird-free. The peas there are a little behind, so my day might come??!!

No, they don't fly well...

I bow to you George! Let me know when you wake up!

Mink! She should have shot it with a 12-bore not a Nikon!

No. but at least they don't die days later of blood poisoning. A fair proportion of the pigeons I eat have healed shot wounds. (OK I haven't checked the pellets to see if they're steel or lead but let's be sensible)

Sorry!