fullbore Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 A lady I know waited until late saturday before excercising her puppy so that most of the fireworks had finished, the pup was being walked on a bridleway that runs through fields, NOT a working farm. however the owner keeps a few sheep as a hooby (less than a dozen) While she was down there some fireworks went off, this was around 23.00 hours and the sheep started running round in their field obviously frightened of the fireworks, the dog slipped it's lead and ran round with the sheep. At no time did the dog bite any of the sheep. The sheep were still alive when she left, after having spoken to the owner, he claims one has later died, with no visible wounds. He says he is reporting the dog as a dangerous animal. He has also threatend to shoot it saying "it'll be the ids next" The lady id very upset, firstly at the death of the sheep, and secondly that he may kill her pet. While I understand that the dog did indeed worry the sheep, can anyone help with the legalities and correct proceedures to set this por womans mind at rest, She has not slept for two days with the distress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 had a dog problem a couple of years back and was asked by a farmer to shoot the dogs involved. phoned the FLD to ask for a condition to do the deed and was told they dont grant it no more. (bull but there you go) it was decided by the feo and myself that if i did need to shoot the dogs it would be best to have a witness present and i should only do it if we saw the dogs in the act, when i asked for the act to be clarified i was told dogs in field chasing and or biting the said sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 I thought as much with regard to him shooting it, but what about the dog being removed and destroyed by the authorities, whoever that might be in the circumstances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 I thought as much with regard to him shooting it, but what about the dog being removed and destroyed by the authorities, whoever that might be in the circumstances would have thought the farmer/landowner must prove it was her dog and not one like it. would i offer the said chap compensation for the dead one, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 oh and there were no bite marks or wounds on the animal, so I would have thought proving it died by fright caused by the dog and not by fireworks would have been difficult to prove He has not asked for compensation, merely been vile and vindictive from what I am told Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badshot Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 It sounds like an unfortunate affair to me. The sheep if pets could well have dropped dead of heart attack or similar due to old age and being unfit. Not that it makes any difference livestock worrying is livestock worrying. As for shooting a dog, it can only be shot if caught in the act, so the best solution is not to take the dog there. Authorities removing the dog? Very unlikely, it is more likely that she will be made to pay for the dead sheep. Her house contents insurance should cover her for third party liability if necessary. Out of interest what sort of dog as I would have thought it needed to be on the dangerous dogs list to be at risk of removal, and I didn't think you could have those breeds left entire for breeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 A dog can only be shot whilst in the act and the onus of proof that the dog had worried the sheep would rest with the farmer if sued by the owner. As for reporting the dog, well you can't stop him but as you say the dog is a pup I doubt the matter would go any further. I doubt any fit sheep would die after running round a field with a pup for a few minutes, my sheep put up with being driven miles by a collie and the odd bite without any harm. Tell your friend not to worry and if the owner of the sheep persues the matter demand a vets pm report for your legal advisers proving the puppy caused the death..........the cost of that will put him off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badshot Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 would have thought the farmer/landowner must prove it was her dog and not one like it. would i offer the said chap compensation for the dead one, no. Unfortunately she has already spoken to the owner about it hasn't she? Probably went along the lines of Are your sheep ok? My dog slipped his lead after the fireworks went off. I am terribly sorry, I hope they are not hurt. And it sounds like she would not be the sort of person to bend the truth if asked about it. She will get no sleep till it's resolved so I would suggest she see the owner with someone else present who won't be intimidated and see what he wants done, after all the dog WAS worrying the sheep. I have shot a couple of dogs in the past with the shottie due to worrying sheep but didn't know whose they were so couldn't get reimbursed for the damage caused. It was substantial I had to shoot nine sheep immediately and another half dozen died later on after vet treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Thanks for all the help so far, apparently the bloke has thrown the carcass on the bonfire without a vet exam, something doesn't ring right to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr lee Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Thanks for all the help so far, apparently the bloke has thrown the carcass on the bonfire without a vet exam, something doesn't ring right to me I could be wrong about disposal on a fire but i though all fallen stock has to legally be collected and disposed of in the correct way? Just lifted this from a site... 'Under the animal by-products order all livestock farmers must dispose of their stock through recognised, proper channels. The UK has an excellent network of efficient collectors who do a fantastic job, and there is an organised system of facilitating and paying for collections through the National Fallen Stock Scheme'. If that is correct it could be one way to shut the farmer up. The threat of a word in the wrong ear and he could potentially be landed with a hefty fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Yes farmer acted illegally burning carcass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 all sounds like bull to me, what kind of puppy was it? secondly sheep don't tend to die of fright but the main problem with dogs is that they do tend to abort unborn lambs if chased and scared enough and that obviously isn't the case here. Sounds like farmer giles is trying to scare her into keeping control of her dog rather than anything else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Yes farmer acted illegally burning carcass. Who enforces this and what are the penalties, because asking around this is something he does regularly, about August time he burned one of his pigs on a rubbish fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 DEFRA would be my guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 all sounds like bull to me, what kind of puppy was it? secondly sheep don't tend to die of fright but the main problem with dogs is that they do tend to abort unborn lambs if chased and scared enough and that obviously isn't the case here. Sounds like farmer giles is trying to scare her into keeping control of her dog rather than anything else The dog is an Inuit sled dog, which she bought for it's good temperament, so is not covered by the dangerous dogs act as was mentioned earlier, and his testicles have not descended yet, if that is relevant and while she and I know that the dog running in the field with the sheep is constituted as livestock worrying, the simple matter is the dog just wanted to play. I would trust the dog with any of my kids, it doesn't even bark. The lady would gladly pay compensation, but she has not been asked, the farmer has a reputation as a bad sort localy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 DEFRA would be my guess I have had a look at the DEFRA website and it mentions about have to use a licensed knacker man for fallen stock, and it says usually enforced by trading standards, no mention of penalties for failing to comply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 From whats been said so far, the farmer hasn't a leg to stand on. He's destroyed any evidence he might need by burning the carcass, the police may want to speak with her about the incident but they cannot act on just his word with no evidence. just sounds to me that he doesn't like people on his land. I spoke to a policeman friend of mine and he basically confirmed this, that unless the farmer is very persistant and stupid enough to try to take her to court over this matter, he will have to provide some sort of evidence to corroberate his story,either photographic or an autopsy report. As he won't have any of these he can't do a damn thing. It might be a good idea for the lady in question to walk her dog elsewhere and keep out of his way though, just in case he decides to have another rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Isn't that one of the dogs you shouldn't let off for fear it will just keep running? There are always two sides to the story and she was concerned enough to talk to the farmer so i'd guess it had a good chase. Best option is to just keep it on a lead round stock and get it used to them. Otherwise the farmer will be well within his rights to shoot it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 From whats been said so far, the farmer hasn't a leg to stand on.He's destroyed any evidence he might need by burning the carcass, the police may want to speak with her about the incident but they cannot act on just his word with no evidence. just sounds to me that he doesn't like people on his land. I spoke to a policeman friend of mine and he basically confirmed this, that unless the farmer is very persistant and stupid enough to try to take her to court over this matter, he will have to provide some sort of evidence to corroberate his story,either photographic or an autopsy report. As he won't have any of these he can't do a damn thing. It might be a good idea for the lady in question to walk her dog elsewhere and keep out of his way though, just in case he decides to have another rant. From what the consensus has been so far I wouldn't have thought he would want to draw attention to himself with destroying the crcass, especially if the penalties are punitive. Just a thought, what are he penalties on the dog and owner if the police do become involved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Isn't that one of the dogs you shouldn't let off for fear it will just keep running? There are always two sides to the story and she was concerned enough to talk to the farmer so i'd guess it had a good chase. Best option is to just keep it on a lead round stock and get it used to them. Otherwise the farmer will be well within his rights to shoot it I think those are Malamuts that keep on running. She didn't let it off, it slipped it's lead when fireworks went off unexpectedly, she did have it on the lead trying to get used to stock as she only lives half a mile from this farm. I understand if the dog is caught worrying sheep it can be shot, I was enquiring as to what might happen in this case, when the sheep was alive when she left. It would appear from what has been said that the sheep was either old or infirm or bad heart and fireworks had pushed it to the brink and the dog tipped it over, because sheep ar herded by dogs anyway, occaisionally getting a nip from the dog and they seem to cope with that. Her dog didn't even bite. We both understand that the offence of stock worrying has occured, and she has no intention of visiting the farm again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 a different collar sounds like its needed as it should be hard to slip it that easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 at the very worst the dog could be taken and destroyed, but as no actual evidence of harm is present then this won't happen,she may recieve a caution, but more likely just an informal warning. if the farmer persists in harassing your friend then she may be able to obtain an injunction against him, courts don't take too kindly to people harassing little old ladies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 a different collar sounds like its needed as it should be hard to slip it that easily. Lessons have been learned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 at the very worst the dog could be taken and destroyed, but as no actual evidence of harm is present then this won't happen,she may recieve a caution, but more likely just an informal warning.if the farmer persists in harassing your friend then she may be able to obtain an injunction against him, courts don't take too kindly to people harassing little old ladies. So there's still a possibility the dog could be destroyed? I was beginning to take hope that because he had disposed of the carcass illegally he would want to hush it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 So there's still a possibility the dog could be destroyed? I was beginning to take hope that because he had disposed of the carcass illegally he would want to hush it up AFAIK the only people who could insist the dog was destroyed is a court and that is very unlikely. If he's being an idiot report him to trading standards - they will make sure all his paperwork is up to scratch, movement and medicine records and disposals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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