lasbrisas Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Folks, I have just been given my SGC and want to take my 14 and 11 year old boys clay shooting but I am having a few problems. It would seem that the shooting ground needs section 11 to allow me to supervise them if they dont have a licence. We have had several lessons so it's not like they are novices and we have our own guns. I am trying to find grounds in the Surrey area that will allow us to turn up and shoot without having to have a lesson, otherwise I'm guessing I will have to get them licences. Any help or advice appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Hi, Come on, it's nearly Christmas, what a cracking present it would make! Mind you, I'd love to know what county you're in, "given", I had to buy mine! Cheers, Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) i would have thought most grounds would have a section 11 but the wording on the certificate goes something like, " to allow non certificate holders the chance to have a go, not for people on a regular basis to shoot without a certificate" shaun Edited November 19, 2009 by shaun4860 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillaroo Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 If it's police approved and inspected then the clay ground should allow you to supervise them. If not (a small local club for example) or if they are shooting game/vermin then they need to be standing alongside and supervised by the landowner or agent. This is, in many cases, an impossibility and the easiest thing to do is get them a licence and some insurance. It's what I had to do when my lad was 9 for him to shoot legally at the local clay shoot and on game days. I'm sure your Firearms officer can advise but it's pretty hard for them to refuse it since the law has changed. Cheers Gillaroo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SXPhil Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 I have been taking my daughter to various clay grounds for the last 6 months without issue including my regular club Little point in her having her own license until she can lawfully carry it on her own in my humble opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasbrisas Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) The local club says both of my boys to have their own licence and insurance before they can go with me, no problem to have a lesson with an instructor though. Edited November 19, 2009 by lasbrisas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasbrisas Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 I have been taking my daughter to various clay grounds for the last 6 months without issue including my regular clubLittle point in her having her own license until she can lawfully carry it on her own in my humble opinion It seems pointless to me aswell to have their own licence, so you didn't have any problems then. Maybe I just need to keep ringing around til I find a ground that will allow us to shoot. me and my 2 boys are like best friends and we do everything together hence my need to find a solution. FEO says they would get their licence and as long as the ground has section 11 theres no problem for them to shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 where you from... shaun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasbrisas Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 where you from... shaun from Camberley in Surrey, very close to Bisley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiiithy Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) If you do end up getting insurance for them you can get membership including insurance from the Countryside Alliance for 2 adults and 2 kids for £90 (provided you all have same address). Not long ago they were offering half price membership so it could be worth a look Edited November 19, 2009 by smiiithy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasbrisas Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 If you do end up getting insurance for them you can get membership including insurance from the Countryside Alliance for 2 adults and 2 kids for £90 (provided you all have same address). Not long ago they were offering half price membership so it could be worth a look Thanks for the tip, just a bit peed off that it's difficult to take them with me ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 pm clayman on here, sure he can offer some advice and he's from your neck of the woods Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillaroo Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) The thing is it's now the law that they must have a licence if they are not on a police approved clay ground unless the owner or sporting agent (which I take includes approved instructor) is with them. Getting a licence is pretty easy if they are sensible and is the best way to go. I stopped kids shooting with their dads on our small syndicate as they were not legal without a licence and therefore not insured. Just the way the law is nowadays whether I agree with it or not. My lad simply filled in the form and got the appropriate referees together with a letter from his headmaster (who found it a bit of a shock) and sent them off. He then had an interview with the FEO who also spoke to his referees and the licence was approved very quickly although the Daily Mail was up in arms about a similar lad of the same age at the same time. He is also one of my best mates and it gives him the option to now shoot when and where he wants albeit still under supervision. One of biggest pleasures is to watch him shoot and he's getting pretty good. Hope this helps. Gillaroo PS CA membership is free for kids and includes insurance. Edited November 19, 2009 by Gillaroo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiiithy Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Sorry - didn't know that. Not sure why they offer a family package then. CA membership is free for kids and includes insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Folks, I have just been given my SGC and want to take my 14 and 11 year old boys clay shooting but I am having a few problems. It would seem that the shooting ground needs section 11 to allow me to supervise them if they dont have a licence. We have had several lessons so it's not like they are novices and we have our own guns. I am trying to find grounds in the Surrey area that will allow us to turn up and shoot without having to have a lesson, otherwise I'm guessing I will have to get them licences. Any help or advice appreciated. BEWARE BEWARE: A clay ground permit to exempt persons from having certificates issued under section 11(6) of the Fire-arms act DOES NOT allow you to carte blanche take your kids, or anyone else, shooting at that ground. The 11(6) is issued to a NAMED individual ( and thats not you) who accepts legal responsibility for the non-certified shooters - SO, whether a ground has an 11(6) permit or not UNLESS you have expressly been delegated the responsibility of supervision by the ground owner ( named 11(6) person or his/her appointee), then the kids are shooting illegally. Most ground owners are required by their insurers to risk assess and mitigate risk. A licensed but untrained ( ie not a qualified coach or professional) looking after kids might be considered higher risk than is acceptable, and invalidate ground insurance if allowed to happen. DO NOT rely on 11(6) without expressed consent to accompany ( preferably by signing in and therefore evidenced in writing). Make sure they are insured. Note that personal P'L cover does NOT include liability of supervision. If your kids cause a claim to arise because of your instruction, any cover you have DOES NOT cover this. You need coaching / professional liability cover to supervise and instruct. Friendly advice is OK, but if you are "teaching" them, whether pad or not, it is no longer recreational sport. DO talk to the ground owner and get all necessary clearances to do what you want. Go in a squad with other club members or use the resident coach to accompany you intil the kids are insured, licensed and competent in their own right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George1990 Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Just take them to Southdown. Not toooooo far from you and a very good no-nonsense ground. Turn up and shoot stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasbrisas Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Thanks clayman for your detailed reply, probably not what I wanted to hear but I do understand that safety and being insured is very important. It's just frustrating trying to find somewhere especially when everyone says we need more youngsters taking part, I now know why they don't take it up. There's no way I can afford a 3 way lesson everytime we want to go, I will have to remortgage the house again ! Any more suggestions on grounds where we will be legal and safe will be much appreciated, we are prepared to travel within say 50-60 miles I guess, George1990 thanks for your suggestion, I will look into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasbrisas Posted November 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Well we all managed to do 50 DTL today at Bisley so we got some practice in which is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) There's no way I can afford a 3 way lesson everytime we want to go, I will have to remortgage the house again ! I know my advice seems negative, but the problem is that 99% of the time people turn up and shoot with unlicensed and uninsured friends and theres no concern by anyone and nothing goes wrong. Its that 1 in 1,00,000 occasion when something does go wrong that the **** hits the fan and suddenly you are in trouble with the law and possibly about to loose your house as an accident has not been adequately covered by insurance. The precautions are simple, just make sure the ground owner knows and approves of what is happening, and that if you are relying on ground insurance that you are covered to supervise. Cover you backside by insisting on signing in so there is a written record that you are approved to shoot under 11(6) and ground insurance is acting. Here is a true story: There is case in court coming up where a friend of mine will appear as an expert witness. Local Cadets were used by a clay shoot to operate the traps. After the shoot they were allowed to "have a go". The shoot has appointed safety officers etc, but the cadets were not briefed or supervised while using a semi-auto to take some pop shots after the shoot. One came off the stand with the S-A, breach closed, and handed it to the next shooter. They took the gun with their finger onto the trigger and it had one up the spout still, which blew away another bystander's leg. Although the ground is insured, no risk assessments as required by Law, and probably as a condition of insurance, appears to have existed. Training and Supervision appear not to have been maintained in the situation. Potentially, the injured cadet ( who has taken two years to recover use of the leg) may have a compensation claim equating to many tens of thousands of pounds, and the shoot owner could find that the insurer's loss adjusters invalidate the claim on the insurance as the terms of insurance ( ie that everything reasonable has been done to mitigate risk) has not been adhered to. I beleive that the ground had no 11(6) permit and that the cadets were no SGC licenced. Section 11(5) does not cover the situation so the shotgun owner may face prosecution for allowing the gun to be used at all, with a potential of revocation of license. The shoot owner may be personally liable if the insurance fails. The injured party could end up with nothing if Ground insurance fails, they have no personal insurance, and the shoot owner is a man of straw, ie no assets worth pursuing. Yes, shooting accidents and problems are actually very rare indeed, but if things go wrong they can go horribly wrong. Just ensure you are legal and personally insured. Always carry your own personal insurance, never rely on a third parties insurance. Edited November 25, 2009 by clayman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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