S Times article on cages

[JRS]

I was just wondering, can they perch in the traditional systems? All the laying pens I have seen provide no perching facilities.

years ago after catching up the birds they were placed in smaler type runs like a chicken coop and moved sideways every day to fresh grass and had perches in

but we have lost a lot of smaller producers and with large comercial concerns perching seems less important

[al4x]

Thats one claim that is nonsense but you're probably nailing the last nail in the coffin for British egg producers who have been loosing the battle to France for the last 20 years or so.

[MC]

Not by banning a method only practised by 2% of the egg producers surely?

[JRS]

All depends on how much is put in to the pens - if they're well provided with branches and brashings then yes. The main thing is they have a lot more space.

 

Another point on all this:

 

BASC is the UK's largest shooting organisation. The vast majority of our members shoot game. We are not in the business of putting ourselves out of business. It's nonsense to claim that we're set to destroy game shooting.

being divided with the shooting times has done little to stop any divisions

my oppinion is that this was not well thought out

[al4x]

Not by banning a method only practised by 2% of the egg producers surely?

 

 

2% in number but in the same sentence it was also noted that they were the biggest producers so probably not 2% of the eggs produced in the UK

[David BASC]

I am sure al4x you do not want to see the 200+ game farmers who use traditional methods put out of business do you? No of course not and nor do we so to say we are putting the final nail in the coffin is silly, did you miss my point about buy local and buy traditional? France is hardly local or as you say traditional! ( are you a CA/ GFA spokesman in disguise?) ha ha just joking!

 

Shooting Times does not run BASC! The members do, who elect the Council. But of course a ‘row’ like this will do ST’s sales figures no harm at all I suspect.

 

Of course people are entitled to their view, but to say its not been thought through is a little wide of the mark I suggest.

 

David

Edited January 19, 2010 by David BASC

[Teal]

I have uploaded the following images on behalf of Simon Clarke, who thinks they may be informative for the debate but was unable to host them on the BASC server.

 

[markbivvy]

nailing the last nail in the coffin for British egg producers who have been loosing the battle to France for the last 20 years or so.

it wont be long.

[al4x]

did those pictures come from Animal aid or LACS?

 

You're obviously on damage limitation duty at the moment as its not good PR for BASC having all the other shooting organisations against you and I'm not arguing for the sake of it purely from a point of perspective that slating a system and going about trying to get a ban in the way thats usually left to the anti organisations needs a bit of explanation. So we're saying these don't improve the animal husbandry at all? and are in no way beneficial to keeping disease at bay for the few months the birds are in them.

Suggesting they are kept in them all year for years on end needs a bit of backing up, obviously we'd all like nothing to go on and change and all birds to be caught up on the estate that they're put down on would be great in an ideal world but its almost unheard of now. Cost and problems being the issues that it takes a lot of skill and experience to keep pheasants and obviously our bigger farmers are learning from what works on the continent is it definitley a bad thing?

[JRS]

I am sure al4x you do not want to see the 200+ game farmers who use traditional methods put out of business do you? No of course not and nor do we so to say we are putting the final nail in the coffin is silly, did you miss my point about buy local and buy traditional? France is hardly local or as you say traditional! ( are you a CA/ GFA spokesman in disguise?) ha ha just joking!

 

Shooting Times does not run BASC! The members do, who elect the Council. But of course a ‘row’ like this will do ST’s sales figures no harm at all I suspect.

Of course people are entitled to their view, but to say its not been thought through is a little wide of the mark I suggest.

 

David

never mind the stupid sales figures and as a last ditch point scoring and damage limitation exersise ,.....have you not even considerd what effect this will have on membership ? then to come on a public forum and try and defend your actions is quite unbelievable

in all my years as a shooter i never thought that the BASC organisation would be at logger heads with britains number one magazine and you still just seem to be on a damage limitation mission instead of trying to undo the mess you have made

this is sheer madness

[MC]

I am afraid that anyone who supports egg production in conditions like that needs to take a long hard look at themselves. And that includes anyone who is part of a shoot that doesn't buy the eggs/poults from local suppliers in this country.

 

If as you say Al4x they other shooting organisations you mean NGO and CA, since when were they shooting organisations? One is only realing interested in fox hunting and the other only interested in gamekeepers.

 

Does it really matter where the pictures came from? The conditions are appalling, and anyone with half an ounce of compassion should A) see that and B ) support BASC over this issue.

Edited January 19, 2010 by MC

[al4x]

are they representative pictures or not? If they are typical then yes it needs stopping, which actually the other organisations are voting for. I'm sure you could get pictures that look as bad from conventional rearing systems what they don't show is birds paddling round in mud and their own muck. Also worth noting the Game Farmers association is also after the second option and presumably they represent the people this directly affects.

 

Its even made it to http://jamesmarchington.blogspot.com/

Edited January 19, 2010 by al4x

[markbivvy]

BASC is backing 'Option 3' of banning cages full stop - placing it in the same camp as rabid anti-shooting organisations Animal Aid and the League Against Cruel Sports.

 

James Marchington.

LET HIS FLAMING BEGIN. :lol: :lol:

[David BASC]

JRS, the BASC position on cages has been on our web site for a few years now and has been reported on in the BASC magazine.

 

Our consultation reply has been on the web site as is other information on the work we have done on cages.

 

It has also been reported on in S Times and other mags over the last few years.

 

Last ditch point scoring and dammage limitation? hardly! Defending our position? no, simply bringing our position to the attention of others, who are not BASC members so will not have seen the mag, or who may not have seen our reports on the BASC web site, and then answering question you pose.

 

I am sure that if BASC members were against the BASC position they would have voiced this loud and clear already , during the three years or more this debate has been going on, to be honest.

 

Beter check with the GFA al4x how many of their members use cages, enriched or otherwise. The vast majority do not use cages - that should tell you somthing!!!

 

Like Simon said, a small cage is a small cage regardless of if you put in some astoturf or a perch. Minimum space for a bird is key in the BASC position.

 

David

[JRS]

JRS, the BASC position on cages has been on our web site for a few years now and has been reported on in the BASC magazine.

 

Our consultation reply has been on the web site as is other information on the work we have done on cages.

 

It has also been reported on in S Times and other mags over the last few years.

 

Last ditch point scoring and dammage limitation? hardly! Defending our position? no, simply bringing our position to the attention of others, who are not BASC members so will not have seen the mag, or who may not have seen our reports on the BASC web site, and then answering question you pose.

 

I am sure that if BASC members were against the BASC position they would have voiced this loud and clear already , during the three years or more this debate has been going on, to be honest.

 

Beter check with the GFA al4x how many of their members use cages, enriched or otherwise. The vast majority do not use cages - that should tell you somthing!!!

 

Like Simon said, a small cage is a small cage regardless of if you put in some astoturf or a perch. Minimum space for a bird is key in the BASC position.

 

David

i have made my comments and cannot agree with what has been posted and typicaly , the way it has been posted

the BASC organisation is , or should be very aware of the image it portrays and right now is not a very good image . whatever arguments are put , for or against this will cause a lot of damage and i never thought i would see the day when the BASC and shooting times were in open conflict

you may wish to ignore how this has come across to many people but it appears to be nothing more than a last ditch attempt at damage limitation and point scoring

[David BASC]

The welfare of the birds, and the good name and reputation of shooting is what is important isn't it?

 

Keeping shooting safe is what is important isn't it?

 

Having spoken to the local game farm, he hates cages and will never use them, nor will any other game farmer he knows, for all the reasons BASC have been stating for years!

 

He accepts that this may well add a few pence per egg, but he, and every one he knows is more interested in the welfare of his stock than making an extra few p an egg. That is what BASC believes and that is central to our position, the welfare of the birds is more important than that few p per egg.

 

I am not ignoring anything, I just cant see how BASC's clear and long established position can be seen by you as a 'a last ditch attempt at damage limitation and point scoring'

 

I would also point out that S Times are carrying the story based on, I think, a press statement by CA and GFA, agian made at the very last moment so it could not be published until after the consultation. S Simes are carrying the story and thier view on the statement by the CA / GFA as I understand it, we will see on Wednesday.

 

If this was such a big issue for S Times and the some of the other organisations,,,why wait until AFTER the consultation has FINISHED before they start making a big noise about it in S Times?

 

You may be of the view that the BASC stance is not the correct one, but as I say, the BASC stance has not changed for several years and is clearly to support local and traditional game farms, to support the welfare of the brids, and to maintain the good name of shooting. I am sure our members, and many if not almost all of you, would support that.

 

David

Edited January 19, 2010 by David BASC

[JRS]

airing those comments of yours and the way they have come accross and posting those pictures have done more damage to shooting than what the anti's could have hoped to achieve in five years

just take time out here and look at what has been writen and replyed to and the way it has been done , this has turned into a pantomine of your making

regardless of who said what to whom , you should have sorted this out with the shooting times behind closed doors , not trying to gain sympathy for damage limitation because that is the only way this whole fiasco is looking

[webber]

I've seen the cage system at work first hand some years ago. I didn't like it then and still don't. It was too much like factory farming for me. Its a pity that more shoots don't visit their poult suppliers, and support only game farmers whos methods they approve of, rather than shopping around for the cheapest price which does happen.

 

webber

[David BASC]

This has been a public consultation and the detials of the pro's and cons of cages well aird, to suggest that only now have BASC brough this to the table is inaccurate to say the least.

 

To say that BASC's stance agianst raised cages is damaging shooting is way of the mark!

 

The points you make about sorting this out with ST should be made to them, not us, they are the ones publishing the story for all to read tomorrow, no doubt encouraged by the GFA / CA press statement, so who do you think are trying to stir things up?

 

Others asked or more info on cages so the pictures tell 1000 words, you would dammn BASC for responding to a question and doubtless others would, quite rightly dammn us if we did not!

 

Evidently the admin of this site were happy to post the pictures so I guess you alos disagree with their stance on that!

 

You keep going on about trying to gain sympathy - agian I say this is not the case, we are simply putting our point forward on this forum so people who have not seen our web site or read our mag know where BASC stands on this important issue, you seem determined to ignore that very simple fact and keep trolling out the sympathy, point scoring, damage limitation mantra! I fully accept that not everyone will agree with the BASC position.

 

If you support the use of raised ages then that is your choice, but frankly I think if they continue to be used in the UK and put smaller game farms out of business that will NOT be a good thing for the industry or the welfare of birds or for shooting.

 

David

[Willow32]

Webber...look at the current climate......more people buy on price than anything alone..........yeah I would like to buy everything free range......but it all boils down to money.

Would syndicate members pay an extra £100-£200 a year because the bird they are going to shoot was free range ?:lol:

 

Willow32

[Whitebridges]

David, you use the words "..Shooting Times is attacking BASC this week for its opposition to the use of battery cages in game farming".

Does BASC pay ST for advertising? Quarrelling hardly represents a united front and is bad for the sport. I suggest your top brass and the ST editor share a bottle of port.

[markbivvy]

airing those comments of yours and the way they have come accross and posting those pictures have done more damage to shooting than what the anti's could have hoped to achieve in five years

just take time out here and look at what has been writen and replyed to and the way it has been done , this has turned into a pantomine of your making

regardless of who said what to whom , you should have sorted this out with the shooting times behind closed doors , not trying to gain sympathy for damage limitation because that is the only way this whole fiasco is looking

 

JRS.

you are not allowed to have a personnel opinion that contradicts the mighty basc.

 

Shooting Times is attacking BASC

 

there picking on me dad,tell em. :lol: :lol:

[David BASC]

Yep BASC do pay to advertise in ST - and it will be interesting if they 'attack' be BASC brand, seems odd to do that if you want ot keep your advertisers I would have thought, Which of their advertisers will be next in the firing line I wonder?

 

As I say, it was not us that issued the press statement to ST that sparked all of this, it was the CA and GFA.

 

As I said the difference is a few pence per egg - hardly going to make any difference to the vast majority of us is it? £50-£75 on say 2500 birds I would guess based on what my local game farmer told me (oh and he does not pass this cost on - he takes a CUT in proffit)... a good price to pay for the welfare of the birds and the future of shooting? I think so

 

David

[Blackbart]

I think a lot of the "us and them" within shooting that this has caused is because of the way Basc condemned it before consulting with game farmers !

 

I remember when it first aired a few year ago and it was on the news(national) that Basc has sided with animal rights etc.The report showed undercover animal rights footage of a gamefarm and then a Basc spokesman condemning the practice I was shocked to say the least...

 

Shooting times at the time ran an article about how Basc had stabbed gamefarmers in the back.

 

For the record i agree with Basc on banning it but think the way they went about the whole thing could have been done in house so to speak without announcing to the world gamefarming was cruel and then having a consultation period.

[Willow32]

I stand corrected on the costs....... thought it would of been a lot more profitable.....

 

Regards

Willow32