Compulsory Testing

[fortune82]

I dont get this "common sense cannot be taught" theme on here and "idiots will always be idiots."

 

Picture the scene:

 

Joe Blogs decides to take up shooting. He applies for a SGC and because he has no criminal record and says he will go clay shooting gets it granted. He then goes and buys a nice new gun and 1000 cartridges and walks off to the first stand.

 

Does common sense tell him the gun is not safe even with the safety catch on?

Does common sense tell him to check the barrel for obstructions regularly?

Does common sense tell him not to fire when a piece of mud is in the end of the barrel?

Does common sense tell him not to fire steel shot through a full choke?

Does common sense tell him a wood pigeon is out of range at 60 yards?

 

NO

 

A course of compulsory training would educate him in these matters making him safer. I genuinely believe there are very few people who behave dangerously with a gun (or a car) because they want to hurt someone. If they are shown the consequences of their actions they usually change their way.

 

As for air weapons picture the following.

 

Young lad wants to get into shooting. Dad agrees to buy him an air rifle. Dad or son apply for Air Rifle licence and state plinking in back garden as reason. All is well.

 

At the moment anyone can buy an air rifle. They can then cause all sorts of grief with said air rifle and may well face prosecution / confiscation of air weapon but what is to stop them going and buying another? Nothing. Obviously some people are prohibitted from buying weapons but what will physically stop them buying one? How does the shop keeper know they aint meant to have one? Some form of licence would mean only legitimate users would be likely to buy an air weapon. Those who mis use them would have their license revoked meaning no more air weapons for them.

 

As for existing guns at the moment the police can go into a house and see an air weapon and know fine well its for breaking windows and shooting swans but do nothing about it. Without a licence it would be very easy to confiscate and prosecute.

 

It makes sense but I sometimes think the shooting community as a whole are against change for the sake of it.

[Westcountryman]

Here's a scenario.

 

Dad wants to buy little Timmy an airgun for Christmas. He's a sensible lad and his dad wants to teach him to shoot.

 

Dad looks at airgun and scope £250. Deep sigh, but his little Timmy is worth it.

 

Dad looks at price of a cabinet £100

 

Dad looks at price of Licence £50

 

Dad looks at price of training course £50+

 

Dad buys little Timmy a few xbox games instead.

 

Don't regulate because of idiots abusing airguns. If anyone wants to push for it, it will be the government, don't give them silly ideas and do it for them.

 

 

As for shotguns. If people run a clay shoot and let anyone roll up and shoot on their own before watching them put 10 carts up, that’s up to them. If it was my shoot, I'd make sure the new shooter knew what he was doing before letting him do his own thing. This I would do for my own peace of mind and more importantly, the safety of my other shooters. I guess that some shoots do this, some don't.

 

If someone wants to buy a shotgun and shoot at woodies without a bit of prior reading, they are an idiot. Put them on a course and they will still be an idiot, but a fully sanctioned idiot.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Westcountryman

[al4x]

fortune I hope you won't mind paying the £200 or so for a days course as if it gets brought in there is no reason it shouldn't be thought of as a good idea for all shooters. Careful what you wish for as said as I believe there is already a company set up that would be ready to offer the training. Fundamentally you can drive with no experience all you need is an adult with you over 21 and plates on and you're fine to go on the road so why shouldn't people be able to teach their children to shoot safely?

[fortune82]

Here's a scenario.

 

Dad wants to buy little Timmy an airgun for Christmas. He's a sensible lad and his dad wants to teach him to shoot.

 

Dad looks at airgun and scope £250. Deep sigh, but his little Timmy is worth it.

 

Dad looks at price of a cabinet £100

 

Dad looks at price of Licence £50

 

Dad looks at price of training course £50+

 

Dad buys little Timmy a few xbox games instead.

 

Don't regulate because of idiots abusing airguns. If anyone wants to push for it, it will be the government, don't give them silly ideas and do it for them.

 

 

As for shotguns. If people run a clay shoot and let anyone roll up and shoot on their own before watching them put 10 carts up, that’s up to them. If it was my shoot, I'd make sure the new shooter knew what he was doing before letting him do his own thing. This I would do for my own peace of mind and more importantly, the safety of my other shooters. I guess that some shoots do this, some don't.

 

If someone wants to buy a shotgun and shoot at woodies without a bit of prior reading, they are an idiot. Put them on a course and they will still be an idiot, but a fully sanctioned idiot.

 

Who said anything about gun cabinets for airguns?

 

As for clay shooting - there are 4 clay grounds within a 40 minute drive from my house, 1 an olympic training venue and none require you to shoot under supervision first.

 

I have never been to a clay shooting ground in my life that required you to shoot under supervision first, have you?

[mossy835]

People get alot of training and testing before getting a licence to drive a car. That doesnt stop people driving like idiots.

 

Who is going to pay for the training? Who is going to enforce safe gun handling after the course is complete? Will everyone be forced to go on the course, regardless of past experience??

 

I can't believe I am reading other shooters trying to add more regulations to shooting. Thanks guys. While we are at it, can someone suggest putting all airguns on FAC and banning their use for hunting?

 

For reference, how many people are injured through shooting accidents due to poor handling/safety?

 

 

 

if you want testing to come in then you do it,leave others out.

[fortune82]

fortune I hope you won't mind paying the £200 or so for a days course as if it gets brought in there is no reason it shouldn't be thought of as a good idea for all shooters. Careful what you wish for as said as I believe there is already a company set up that would be ready to offer the training. Fundamentally you can drive with no experience all you need is an adult with you over 21 and plates on and you're fine to go on the road so why shouldn't people be able to teach their children to shoot safely?

 

I havent said people shouldnt be able to teach their kids. After all you dont need to take lessons to pass your driving test do you?

 

If everyone in the country with a SGC had to pass a test it would flag up those with safety knowledge problems and allow them to be shown the correct way. Why would that have to cost £200? Even if it did a course of lessons on a clay ground is probably more once you have a few.

[fortune82]

if you want testing to come in then you do it,leave others out.

I happily would, if it would ensure I saw less irresponsible behaviour.

 

The thread "whats the worst" proves there is plenty of it about.

[al4x]

I havent said people shouldnt be able to teach their kids. After all you dont need to take lessons to pass your driving test do you?

 

If everyone in the country with a SGC had to pass a test it would flag up those with safety knowledge problems and allow them to be shown the correct way. Why would that have to cost £200? Even if it did a course of lessons on a clay ground is probably more once you have a few.

 

 

a day with a trainer takes place somewhere everybody wants their cut and its a business rather than anything else. At the moment you do get asked for any experience before you get a ticket and certainly with centrefires mentoring is being introduced. The system works as there are very few accidents relating to legally held firearms, the only one I've seen in my shooting time was a guy who ran his own shoot and had been shooting 40 years before he managed to shoot someone

[wymberley]

Hi,

What's new about licensing airguns? They always used to be.

Cheers

[fortune82]

Hi,

What's new about licensing airguns? They always used to be.

Cheers

When?

 

FAC yes but not sub 12 ft/lb as far as Im aware!

[Westcountryman]

Who said anything about gun cabinets for airguns?

 

As for clay shooting - there are 4 clay grounds within a 40 minute drive from my house, 1 an olympic training venue and none require you to shoot under supervision first.

 

I have never been to a clay shooting ground in my life that required you to shoot under supervision first, have you?

 

If you licence airguns, you would have to lock them up somewhere.

 

As for clay ground safety, I said if I was running one. Ofcourse they don't test everyone, because they know, after seeing 1000's new people shooting, that gun owners are completly stupid. That said, the local club I went to recently, ensures that someone experienced goes round with any new faces. Common sense prevails at club level. It might not be in your face, but it's there.

[CharlieT]

I really do despair. Some will have us require tags for rats, rabbits and foxes from the soon to be created Vermin Monitoring Unit to accompany our brand new shiny safety proficiency certificate.

 

In 50 odd years of shooting I have never seen an accident nor heard of one happening to anyone of my acquaintance.

 

I believe that such accidents are very rare and the numbers most certainly do not warrant the introduction of compulsory testing. Do remember that firearms legislation is the responsibility of the Home Office and it is the HO who have appointed the police as their agent to administer licensing. I would not be in the remit of the police to offer training but a private training body, such as those offering DSC training. Such training would obviously include a margin of profit.

 

Of course such courses are available now. For example BASC offer 6 different Sporting Rifle courses at £210 each and Firearms Awareness courses for Shotguns, Rifles and Airguns at £125 each. They also offer the Shotgun Safe Shot award.

 

If people feel they are in need of training or do not have a parent or mentor to guide them there are courses available but please let's not go down the compulsory route particularly when the facts show that it is not necessary or warranted.

 

I would suggest Mr fortune 82 has been very unfortunate in witnessing such a vast amount of dangerous gun handling because it truly is not the norm. I would suggest Mr fortune reports these dangerous guns to the authorities because believe me if I came across a blatantly dangerous "Chav" I certainly would with a view to having his license revoked. Better that then compulsory tests.

[fortune82]

I would suggest Mr fortune reports these dangerous guns to the authorities because believe me if I came across a blatantly dangerous "Chav" I certainly would with a view to having his license revoked

 

Believe me they were not Chavs! I dont want to get the wrong impression across, I do not witness things such as this all the time. I have seen 3 dangerous incidents in the last 3 years and 2 were commited by new guns who had "all the gear and no idea". It just got me thinking that the current system was a bit lacking.

 

I know the vast majority of shots are safe and have been mentored by parents / friends / etc but there is a minority who seem to just take up the sport for something to do with little or no training.

[night owl]

I know there is a lot of controversy surrounding compulsory testing before getting a SGC but several events over the last few years have got me thinking.

 

Basically I have come across several people shooting over the last couple of years who have all the gear but clearly no idea at all.

 

One tried to shoot a plug of mud from the barrel of his 12 bore!

 

Another fired the first barrel of his gun at a clay and then turned around to talk to those spectating whilst pointing the second barrel at everyone's heads and chests!

 

A third one took a semi auto from his car, walked to his peg (beaters day) and without doing anything ie loading the gun, fired 2 shots at a pheasant. At the end of the drive he then applied the safety catch and put the gun back in the car before receiving his marching orders from the keeper. Worrying thing is this guy had been shooting 40 odd years!

 

I know BASC are against any more legislation etc but surely with idiots like this able to get a SGC with no testing it could be a matter of life and death?

ok i have not read the rest of the posts

here we have to go under a trading licence before we can be let lose with a gun this takes 2 years for a sgc

firearms you have to be a member of a club and show good practice before licence is issuid <same as above>

hunting licence you have to be a member of a recognised hunting club attend club events at shooting grounds for 2 years once that is finished the licence has to be signed by 2 officers of the club then it is given to the police firearms department and the licence is then issued as long as you have stuck to the rules and shown good practice

at any time you commit a criminal offence apart from minor traffic offences the licence is revoked with in 24 hours and will never be re issued

 

works well here and no one has any problem with it

[wymberley]

When?

 

FAC yes but not sub 12 ft/lb as far as Im aware!

Oh, yes! My first was granted at 9:26 am on the 23 August 1958. On the reverse there were some tips on ensuring clean kills prepared by the BFSS IN CONJUNCTION WITH the RSPCA - imagine that happening today! I'm not quite sure when the requirement ended as I was having the time of my life (!??!) in Aden but I think it may have been about 1966/7 when the new white folding shotgun licenses came into being.

Cheers

[TonySmith]

I really do despair. Some will have us require tags for rats, rabbits and foxes from the soon to be created Vermin Monitoring Unit to accompany our brand new shiny safety proficiency certificate.

 

In 50 odd years of shooting I have never seen an accident nor heard of one happening to anyone of my acquaintance.

 

I believe that such accidents are very rare and the numbers most certainly do not warrant the introduction of compulsory testing. Do remember that firearms legislation is the responsibility of the Home Office and it is the HO who have appointed the police as their agent to administer licensing. I would not be in the remit of the police to offer training but a private training body, such as those offering DSC training. Such training would obviously include a margin of profit.

 

Of course such courses are available now. For example BASC offer 6 different Sporting Rifle courses at £210 each and Firearms Awareness courses for Shotguns, Rifles and Airguns at £125 each. They also offer the Shotgun Safe Shot award.

 

If people feel they are in need of training or do not have a parent or mentor to guide them there are courses available but please let's not go down the compulsory route particularly when the facts show that it is not necessary or warranted.

 

I would suggest Mr fortune 82 has been very unfortunate in witnessing such a vast amount of dangerous gun handling because it truly is not the norm. I would suggest Mr fortune reports these dangerous guns to the authorities because believe me if I came across a blatantly dangerous "Chav" I certainly would with a view to having his license revoked. Better that then compulsory tests.

 

Have read all the posts, and Charlie T's puts it in perspective.

[wymberley]

Have read all the posts, and Charlie T's puts it in perspective.

Point taken Tony but read this one. Three of us went on a fox shoot in Norfolk (unknown to us at the time, it had a bit of a reputation). At the end of the first drive we were all walking (no shooting) to the next in two distinct groups when a gun went off in the other group. We all turned around to see one **** picking up his gun that he'd dropped. How on earth it didn't hit anyone I'll never know. With a mate on either side, we were standing guns on this drive and could hear the walking guns approaching. Someone shouted "fox" and someone else "no, hare, don't shoot" but too late. I got it in both feet and I can tell you it !??!**!? hurts. At this point the three of us did what we should have done when the idiot dropped a loaded gun except with no operational feet I couldn't leg it so got carried instead. Consequently, please forgive me if I appear to be with Fortune on this one, for I most certainly am.

Cheers

[fortune82]

Exactly with Wymberley. Guns are designed to kill things. Cars, knives, chainsaws etc are not. People need to be trained to use guns so they dont kill people.

[Popgun]

I think compulsory shotgun testing would just turn into a money making venture for someone i've seen some idiots that have been on deer courses that should never be let near a rifle.

[mossy835]

Exactly with Wymberley. Guns are designed to kill things. Cars, knives, chainsaws etc are not. People need to be trained to use guns so they dont kill people.

 

have all the training you need but people will still shoot people with guns.