pavman Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Friend wants to start his young lad off, an I have to admit like him I dont know what age you have to be to apply for a cert, any ideas guys pavman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 pavmen, I put the same question to the officer when the renewal came up for my FAC. The reply I got was save your money.......Just lend the kid one of yours, as long as they are supervised, in sight, & sound, it's legal. Phone BASC if in doubt, I'm going to when the time comes. Bazooka Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 (edited) any age for a shotgun cert,you cant let anyone use your shotgun unless he has a cert or you are the owner of the ground,you must be the owner.not rent ground that came from my firearm department,because i asked the same thing. Edited November 4, 2005 by mossy835 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 I stand corrected, & so will the Officer that told me when I see him........... This is quoted from the BASC Home page. Not a lot of people know that…… (but they should !) Section 11 (5) of the Firearms Act of 1968 states: " A person may, without holding a shotgun certificate, borrow a shotgun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier’s presence." Section 11(6) states: " A person may, without holding a shotgun certificate , use a shot gun at a time and place approved for shooting at artificial targets by the chief Officer of police for the area in which that place is situated." So…… What does all this mean to me as a game or rough shooter? It means NO, you CAN’T just lend your shotgun to someone who hasn’t got a certificate - UNLESS you are the OCCUPIER of private land, ON that land, WITH that person, or you’re at a clay pigeon layout which has been granted that permission by the Chief Constable. If you let someone without a certificate use your shotgun in other circumstances, it is likely that you are committing a criminal offence, and you run the risk of losing your certificate and being fined, or worse. Many people believe that if they’ve got permission to shoot over land, they can take someone without a certificate onto that land and let them shoot their shotgun. This is NOT the case. Please, when you are considering lending a shotgun to anyone who doesn’t have a certificate, think of this, and if you have ANY doubt contact the BASC Firearms Department on 01244 573 010. We can help and advise. Email this page to a friend Print this page Bazooka Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted November 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 ,you must be the owner.not rent ground Would that include land owed by a club of which he was a member, would he still need the cert if say 13 years old Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted November 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Baz j did not see your post go up as i wrote mine above, thanks you have sorted the question. pavman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piebob Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 The FEO was correct. You can lend a shotgun to anyone to use on your permission(s) as long as they are in sight, sound and under your supervision. The working is very poor and it is a bit of a grey area, but term "occupier" is generally taken to mean any person having any right of hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or fish. i.e. you do not have to actually own the land or rent it, as long as you having shooting rights it's OK. The BASC site actually states this if you read it carefully. The bit at the bottom just confuses things but I read that to mean "you can't just take someone to your permissions, drop them off with your gun and leave them to it". Go here http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/news-and-p...PDF?view=Binary and read 6.14 Piebob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 if you are there or not you cannot let anyone use you gun without a cert you must be the owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Thanks Piebob, Your right the wordings are poor. There are a lot of grey areas concerning laws which govern our sport. Had it out recently about the "open Cert", FEO sworn blind there is no such thing, BASC info on the subject, was nothing but anti police. His HQ didn't think so when I phoned them. Bazooka Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piebob Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Mossy, believe what you've been told if you like mate but bear in mind that some FEOs and a lot of police like to make up the laws as they see fit rather than uphold the law. If you read this.... Section 11 (5) of the Firearms Act of 1968 states: " A person may, without holding a shotgun certificate, borrow a shotgun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier’s presence." ....then read this (taken from the "Home Office - Guidance to Police 2002")....... Shot guns 6.14 Section 11(5) of the 1968 Act allows an individual, without holding a shot gun certificate, to borrow a shot gun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier’s presence. The presence of the occupier is normally taken to mean within sight and earshot of the individual borrowing the firearm. The term “occupier” is not defined in the Firearms Acts, nor has a Court clarified its meaning. However, the Firearms Consultative Committee in their 5th Annual report recommended that the provisions of section 27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 be adopted. This states that ‘“occupier” in relation to any land, other than the foreshore, includes any person having any right of hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or fish’. In the absence of any firm definition for firearms purposes, it is suggested that each chief officer of police may wish to make use of this definition. .........you'll be able to make up your own mind rather than go on the whim of someone else. Piebob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 (edited) piebob,ok see what you saying but i wanted to take a mate out without a cert but my firearms department said i must own the land,not just beable to shoot it,if anyone does it be aware or you could lose a cert over it. Edited November 4, 2005 by mossy835 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted November 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 my head hurts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 So does mine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenbears10 Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 if you are there or not you cannot let anyone use you gun without a cert you must be the owner. Keep saying it mossy. I checked with Bedfordshire firearms dept and they told me you are fine to supervise a non certificate holder on land which you do not own as long as you both have permission. We all know different counties interpret the law in different ways. What is allowed for you may not be allowed for me. I supervise someone every week and I am NOT breaking the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenbears10 Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 However, the Firearms Consultative Committee in their 5th Annual report recommended that the provisions of section 27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 be adopted. This states that ‘“occupier” in relation to any land, other than the foreshore, includes any person having any right of hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or fish’. In the absence of any firm definition for firearms purposes, it is suggested that each chief officer of police may wish to make use of this definition.[/color] Piebob Bob that is exactly what my FLO quoted to say I was allowed as well. Section 27 of the wildlife and countryside act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbitraider Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 (edited) Basically i read it as at 14-15 u can use a shotgun under supervision of sum1 else with a cert. 16 (dats me) you can get a cert and you may own a shotgun and use it without supervision, but obviously they cant buy a gun or amunition. At this age the gun must me given or lent. Then after 17 i beleive you can do wat you want (with in reason) Edited November 4, 2005 by Rabbitraider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topmantim Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Hi guys. Due to all the confussion I phoned Lincolnshire Firearms Dept and was told that you cannot take anyone with you unless they are a licence holder regardless of age. ( if I owned the land I could take who I wanted even if they were not licenced). I am now faced with having to pay £50 for a licence for my 12 yr old son who cannot own a gun or buy one but still has to have a licence to shoot with me. If he was to use a 12ft per lb air rifle with me on the land I have permission on that is ok as it is not a licenced weapon. I think this is crazy but as I want to stay within the law I must now get him a licence!! My only advice would be phone your local firearms dept and get the information first hand so you know where you stand. I agree it is a hazy area but it is best to stay legal, if in doubt ring the firearms dept. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 im not sure if this is the case with the shotgun cert, but certainly with a rifle it is the same rules, apart from that when you are given permission to shoot on the land, you in the eyes of the firearms law become the 'owner of the land', meaning that i was able to go with my dad shooting without holding a FAC however i never investigated this for the SGC so couldnt tell you if it was the case. my advice, phone the basc, phoning plod to be frank is more often than not a waste of a good phone call, in my experiance and the experiance of many other i know, plod will read into the laws what ever he likes if it means he will get to tell you what you can or cannot do. the basc team is not such, they tell it as it is, its not in their intrest to lie to favour the shooter as they provide their insurance and would be causing themselves problems by doing so, should the shooter be pulled up whilst shooting in a manner advised by the basc legal team. give the basc a call, some plain simple old hands telling it how it is, not how they want to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 you cannot take anyone with you unless they are a license holder regardless of age. thats not true, phone the basc if you are a member. the police have a habit of making the rules up to there liking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 well i read on the basc it said dont think you can go out in a field and let someone use your gun because you cant,that was not long ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 i think's dont stand up in court, get in touch with the basc, they dont bite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurcherboy Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 My 13 y/o has a certificate. He told the FLO it was for clays, answered all the questions she asked and got his cert, which I paid for :< LB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topmantim Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 thanks chaps.I will phone the basc up later when i get up.And no am not lazy i work nights .Its not i mind paying the £50 its i just cannot see the point of him having a licence as i said before. Away talk later of to bed thanks tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topmantim Posted November 12, 2005 Report Share Posted November 12, 2005 hi chaps. Its true.Found out that if your not the landowner,you cannot take anybody with you unless they have a licence.So be carefull your not breaking the law talk soon tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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