Caseless shotgun shells

[Shuck.]

do they exist or did I make it up

 

imagine a semi auto shotgun, firing one cartridge after another, the bolt sliding back to chamber new loads and ejecting only a wisp of smoke.

 

would these be too expensive to manufacture and has anyone heard of them for shotguns?

[Billy.]

do they exist or did I make it up

 

imagine a semi auto shotgun, firing one cartridge after another, the bolt sliding back to chamber new loads and ejecting only a wisp of smoke.

 

would these be too expensive to manufacture and has anyone heard of them for shotguns?

 

I think the only 'whisp of smoke' is the one coming off the end of whatever you're smoking

[Shuck.]

not smoking anything.. what's the bad idea about not having to bother picking up cartridges ever again?

[Billy.]

not smoking anything.. what's the bad idea about not having to bother picking up cartridges ever again?

 

...Right... and what holds the primer, powder, shot, wad...

 

What creates the pressure to make it go bang, rather than fizzle out the end of the gun?

 

I think you must've dreamt it.

[yanibaby]

...Right... and what holds the primer, powder, shot, wad...

 

What creates the pressure to make it go bang, rather than fizzle out the end of the gun?

 

I think you must've dreamt it.

 

 

Exactly what I was about to ask!

[Shuck.]

...Right... and what holds the primer, powder, shot, wad...

right, forget about the primer for a minute, the powder, shot and wad are all held by the combustible case!

 

What creates the pressure to make it go bang, rather than fizzle out the end of the gun?

the cartridge is housed between a wall of steel barrel!!

 

I think you must've dreamt it.

all great ideas are born of one

[MJN]

is it just a dream

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caseless_ammunition

 

Others have tried on small bore ammunition.

 

it's the extraction of unfired shells that is a prblem I would say.

[guest1957]

It is possible with certain rifle ammunition, but I am confused how something with a combustable case will be strong enough for practical use. Incidently, they use solid nitro propellant which the primer is bedded directly in to. Some also use electric firing mechanisms. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caseless_ammunition

[Shuck.]

it's the extraction of unfired shells that is a prblem I would say.

 

if I solved the problem of the cartridge cycling I think the idea would work!!

Edited April 15, 2010 by Shuck.

[Billy.]

Aaah.. Shuck, you didn't say a combustible case. You said caseless...!

 

I think you'd have a shotgun with all sorts of chambers and containers holding primers and powder etc...

 

A combustible case... It sounds like it'd never get created because there's too much of a fire risk. At least shotgun cartridges are slightly fireproof

[Shuck.]

Aaah.. Shuck, you didn't say a combustible case. You said caseless...!

 

I think you'd have a shotgun with all sorts of chambers and containers holding primers and powder etc...

 

A combustible case... It sounds like it'd never get created because there's too much of a fire risk. At least shotgun cartridges are slightly fireproof

 

Hmm well if we took the fire risk away (adequate warnings on boxes and physical protection on 250 slabs) I don't think it's a bad idea..

 

even better.. what if the case was only able to combust was through the heat of the nitro fire and the outside could have a protective layer.

[Shuck.]

let me rephrase that, if the outside of the cases weren't directly flammable, but would only burn after the primer was struck.

[seeker]

Wasn't there a muzzle loader with several flash holes along the barrel .... load 10 - fire 1 - slide it back one problem when you get a flashback and chain fire....

but you would get more than a wisp of smoke.

[Shuck.]

Wasn't there a muzzle loader with several flash holes along the barrel .... load 10 - fire 1 - slide it back one problem when you get a flashback and chain fire....

but you would get more than a wisp of smoke.

 

not sure what you mean by 'chain fire' ..and what do you mean by 'loading 10' in a muzzleloader, don't muzzleloaders load one at a time

 

but to retort to what I understand I'd expect an extent of flash from a barrel with holes down it

[Shuck.]

is it just a dream

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caseless_ammunition

 

Others have tried on small bore ammunition.

 

it's the extraction of unfired shells that is a prblem I would say.

 

I misread this before.. why would unfired extraction be a problem?

the dimensions would be identical to a conventional cartridge.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Shuck.

[activeviii]

Its been done already.

 

The arquebus in the 15th century. Just took a little longer to load than a semi.

 

 

Phil.

[manton]

not sure what you mean by 'chain fire' ..and what do you mean by 'loading 10' in a muzzleloader, don't muzzleloaders load one at a time

 

but to retort to what I understand I'd expect an extent of flash from a barrel with holes down it

This was an old attempt to produce multi shot weapons by loading several charges after each other into a barrel with a number of firing mechanisms placed at what was expected to be the powder end of each charge. In a manner it behaved as a caseless cartridge system but so did an ordinary muzzleloader. Several early rifles did have "self consuming" cartridges - paper soaked in saltpetre or something to make it burn-but a percusion cap had to be placed somewhere at the breech to fire the charge, usually by firing through the paper cartridge into the gunpowder.

[Billy.]

Actually... There is something that exists, which is an electronic trigger, which controls 50 barrels, which each contain; powder/bullet, poweder/bullet and on and on. Each bullet can be individualy fired by an electronic charge, meaning they can fire something like 1m rounds a minute.

 

I guess this would be deemed cartridgeless, but it'll be tricky to load it

[SSS]

So what you are saying is, you have invented a 15th century muzzle loading percussion shotgun

[Shuck.]

sorry for not explaining it properly, by 'caseless' I mean it does have a case when it's loaded, but once it's fired the case is gone - this is achieved by having a combustible case.

it looks and feels the same and has the same dimensions as a normal cartridge, there is nothing to do with muzzleloading or manual loading at all, you load the ammo into the gun like normal and you shoot it like normal.

 

with the same load as a conventional cartridge, the recoil would be similar and adequate enough to cycle a semi auto bolt and chamber the next round only, instead of ejecting an empty 10 feet away, it ejects nothing.

 

SSS if they had that technology in the 15th century I'd be very impressed

Edited April 15, 2010 by Shuck.

[MM]

Ive seen the electronic fired ones, called something American like 'Steel Death' or 'Rods of Doom'

 

 

What about a cartridge casing that is biodegradeablebl ble.?

[Shuck.]

Ive seen the electronic fired ones, called something American like 'Steel Death' or 'Rods of Doom'

 

 

What about a cartridge casing that is biodegradeablebl ble.?

 

you mean the hailstorm??

 

biodeg carts will still be a problem as they need to house a non degradable primer, also not very nice to look at on the field

Edited April 15, 2010 by Shuck.

[Billy.]

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[Floating Chamber]

I believe there was a caseless round in the early days of repeating rifles. I think it was used in the early 'Volcanic' rifle and pistol and 'Rocket Ball' weapon. The bullet contained the powder in its cavity with the primer ahead of it. A long needle-like striker entered the cavity and struck the cap.

 

Edit: Found this: U.S. Patent #5701.

 

http://www.us-patent-search.com/cgi-bin/pd...livery=Download

Edited April 15, 2010 by Floating Chamber

[Shuck.]

I believe there was a caseless round in the early days of repeating rifles. I think it was used in the early 'Volcanic' rifle and pistol and 'Rocket Ball' weapon. The bullet contained the powder in its cavity with the primer ahead of it. A long needle-like striker entered the cavity and struck the cap.

 

Edit: Found this: U.S. Patent #5701.

 

http://www.us-patent-search.com/cgi-bin/pd...livery=Download

 

Unfortunatley haven't got an account for that site, I found Rocket Ball on Wikipedia and I'm still baffled how it works!

I was thinking more towards the primed case tip being ejected in a side box to make a fully environmentally-friendly ammunition.