Steel shot is poo!

[Evil Elvis]

If your mate used 7.5 in steel I am not surprised he did not do any good bearing in mind you should go up at least 2 sizes in steel 7.5 would be like using 9.5s in lead

 

tHE GAMEBORE STEEL i USED ARE THE "EQUIVALENT" OF A LEAD 7.5 AND ARE ALREADY LARGER TO COMPENSATE SO NEGATES THAT ARGUEMENT COMPLETELY.

Damn Caps locks...they come on automatically on these stupid work pc's.

[anser2]

tHE GAMEBORE STEEL i USED ARE THE "EQUIVALENT" OF A LEAD 7.5 AND ARE ALREADY LARGER TO COMPENSATE SO NEGATES THAT ARGUEMENT COMPLETELY.

Damn Caps locks...they come on automatically on these stupid work pc's.

 

 

Quote from your first post Elvis

 

" Yep I used gamebore ones too.Won 500 and was given another 500!!! Close up they were fine, in fact i did like them, they had a few extra pellets and smashed stuff well at the club i won them at, that have mostly closer targets. (28g 7.5). I started to use them at other clubs with longer range targets and started to miss a few longer range shots that Id normally hit, so tried them with tighter chokes 1/2 3/4.. which made a very slight difference.The went to another club with a load of guys from here, there was a very long range looper that i just couldnt hit, yet Mungler was pasting it ( as usual). I tried 10 shots on the trot, various leads....nothing.I asked Mungler for some lead and hit them all, I then gave him some steels and he missed....conclusive enough for me. "

 

 

No mention of them being "Equivalent of lead 7.5s " there. So were the 28gr 7.5s steel or lead?

Edited April 25, 2010 by anser2

[Evil Elvis]

I won them, in a competition.I didnt want steels , but the guy said that they had already compensated and made the adjustment, so they were the equivalent of 7.5 lead...but in steel. Is that Bull ****? Edited April 25, 2010 by Evil Elvis

[chezza1986]

Wow. Really got a few mixed opinions on here. Not really herd anything that will make me change my mind on how I fell steel shot preforms.

Upping the shot size, increasing the maximum velocity and so on. I know wild fowlers use high performance steel loads to good effective but new guns must be bought to handle these loads. Wild fowling is now a specialized area of shooting due to laws being in effect that ban toxic loads(lead) from being used. This in it self provides the antis with enough ammo for banning lead shot using wild fowling as a beacon for their cause, *********! I feel Scotland have better rules for wild fowling than England does at the moment but I deflect from the point. Steel poses limitations on performance and also the equipment people use ie. the older and possibly very expensive guns that joe bloggs might have in his/her collection that would over night become obsolete.

I think that some of you are correct in that you need to use steel properly and that it is a bit in your head that you miss some or a lot of targets. I have found that steel loads on a skeet range are good but that is where it stops for me. I just can not get it over in my head that steel is a "good" replacement and there are many others that may share this opinion.

Let's not share the unfortunate fate that has fallen to the wild fowlers and not give in to inferior substitutes!

[al4x]

taking the go up two sizes principle what would you do for hare drives? I currently use 4's and going up to 2's is going to be up to a size where shooting ground game in company is going to be extremely dangerous. Pigeons are fine i could live with the sizes used but shotguns do shoot other quarry

[Guest cookoff013]

taking the go up two sizes principle what would you do for hare drives? I currently use 4's and going up to 2's is going to be up to a size where shooting ground game in company is going to be extremely dangerous. Pigeons are fine i could live with the sizes used but shotguns do shoot other quarry

 

+1

i actually really agree with this one here, shooting ground game (on the ground) has the chance to ricochet everywhere. so steel isnt a good option here.

good point.

[MC]

Steel is not the only non toxic though is it? How many hare drives do you do and how many shots do you fire? I am guessing that it is not that many. However as you rightly say steel in a 32gr load of 4's is perfect for pigeons, ducks and all other game.

 

Steel can be used in any gun that is not choked tighter than a half and only needs superior steel proof for the high performance wildfowling loads.

 

Whether you like it or not the lead ban IS going to happen at some point in the future, lead is a toxin and will eventually be controlled in all apsects of its use. Like it has been banned in paint, solder for water pipework etc etc.

 

The real point is none of the cartridge manufacturers are going to go out of business because of this, there will be alternatives and not just steel.

[al4x]

not toxic enough to require its removal in water pipes though.

 

Ground game wise I guess I can use a fair few probably 500 a year without starting to think about squirrels etc firing 4's at tree branches with people about is another activity I suppose you'd need to use Bismuth and get another job to pay for it

 

I see you've taken the same stance as our shooting organisation though MC,

[MC]

Al4x,

 

Not at all, however like it or not it is on its way. All the fighting kicking and screaming isn't going to stop it. Your attitude is no different to all the wildfowlers who thought the end of there sport was nigh (Myself included) however equipping yourself with the appropriate tools then wildfowling moved with the times.

 

You can use Bismuth, TMX, Hevishot or steel (Soft iron) in all your guns now to good effect. Everyone is also harping on about the old traditional game gun being phased out but it won't be. You could never use magnum or high performance cartridges anyway and Eley, Express and the like are all going to produce cartridges that are suitable. They would be foolish not to.

 

You say you use around 500 cartridges on ground game and the like. So 20 boxes at around 15 - 20 quid is around £300 - £400 which in the scheme of things is nothing over a year is it? It is only £6 - £8 a week.

 

 

BASC have outlined their stance on lead and although you won't accept it they are opposed to any further restrictions on lead shot. I agree with that fully and unequivocally.

[fortune82]

Last season I did a bit of a comparison. Whilst duck shooting inland in Scotland I mixed steel and lead cartridges together in my bag and shot whatever came to hand. I couldnt tell the difference at all. I pricked a couple of ducks - with both steel and lead, but the vast majority were killed cleanly. One extremely high duck came down stone dead and when I opened the gun I was expecting lead instead it was 32 gram no3 steel.

 

At the end of the day if and when it is banned the cost of non toxic alternatives will come down. There is no way any cartridge manufacturer is going to stay in business if all they sell are £1 a bang cartridges. A days decoying would cost several hundred pounds! At the end of the day cartridge manufactureres are a business and will want to stay in business.

[al4x]

Its a lot more than I'm paying at the moment though! close to £1 a shot on squirrels will just mean I don't bother, but will others or will they just use steel and cross their fingers. Its one thing shooting skyward with non toxic its entirely another shooting at trees or the ground. Your attitude is interesting as its what you're meant to think being drip fed information about it.

[MC]

OK,

 

Let's settle this once and for all, as you are so obsessed about steel being so bad and no good down range answer this question honestly.

 

 

Would any of you doubters of the ability to kill at range stand 50 yards away from me and let me shoot you with a 32gr load of No.4 Steel?

 

 

NOPE I Thought not.

 

Now try and tell me it isn't any good.

 

Why should they cross their fingers? If you are any kind of shot then you will kill what you shoot cleanly regardless of cartridge. I assume that going by your comments on lead you have never winged a bird or not killed one outright?

[al4x]

crossing fingers is related to the steel not coming back at you or anyone arround you, thats my main concern with ground game and shooting round trees. Be interesting to see how long it took before there are side issues like the Forestry Comission banning its use on their ground etc etc I'm sure there will be an update in the next magazine of the best alternatives though, now they are bandying this as evidence I know there is not a lot of hope

 

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/press/news/contam100420.htm

[MC]

And lead doesn't ever ricochet does it?

 

Nor does it ever wound quarry

 

And you have failed to answer my question

[al4x]

simply yes it does and the larger the shot the more likely it is to do so, hence jumping 2 sizes straight away begins to make steel not an option for ground game and driven game / vermin shooting in woodland. Hence most of my shooting each year looks set to be at £1 a shot, I'm less concerned with the killing ability and of course wouldn't want to stand 50 yards away though I would hazard a guess it wouldn't penetrate a wax jacket at that range. Killing wise we've already assumed the end of high bird shooting and you'll be shooting pheasants at a max of 30 yards unless you go up to 2's or something ludicrous which is fine but will ruin the sport.

[MC]

What an absolute uninformed crock of ****. You really are priceless arguing about something you have no experience of and only listen to hearsay or what you want to believe. I admire your sentiment for arguing even when completely wrong but now you are just beginning to look silly.

 

I don't own a wax jacket or I would go and prove you completely wrong right now. I HAVE shot and killed plenty of ducks at ranges further than you say with standard steel cartridges, and a duck is a lot hardier bird than a pheasant.

 

I know of people who shoot game with 7's so by going up two sizes you would use 5's and lot's of people use 5's in lead so where is the difference? If you are shooting ground game with people near enough to cop a ricochet then I suggest maybe you take a long hard look at your shooting habits. I have been on several hare drives and I honestly can't remember ever having to think about ricochets (Not in that sense anyway)

[al4x]

you ought to write into the Shooting Times based on your evidence you've just rubished their two page spread on the effectiveness of Steel. If its suitable for 50 yard shots on ducks it must be ok and certainly disproves their research

[MC]

You ought to go and give steel an honest trial, not just one or two cartridges. I think you will be suprised.

 

Facts and figures mean nothing to the average shooting man, practical experience matters. I value my shooting and my time out wildfowling and I certainly would use steel if it wasn't any good. The cost to me is irrelevant, making the most of my sport is what matters.

 

Out to 40 yards which afterall is the considered effective range of a shotgun then most steel loads are fine. I never mentioned 50 yards, I said I have shot ducks at distances further than you mention. You mentioned 30 yards. Personally I don't very often raise a gun to quarry that is more than 40 yards.

[anser2]

al4x , there are new soft steel pellets in the pipeline and a new tin load which would greatly reduce the level of any ricochet. perhaps to the same risk as lead. MC is right steel sooner or later is coming if we like it or not. I have made an offer in other posts for an experianced shooter who is a disbelever in steel to join me for a day pigeon decoying later in the year as long as they use steel and are prepared to write up their experiances in the forum. Guess what not a single disbelever has taken me up on the offer. Have so many on here got such closed minds ?

 

I use lead mainly because at the moment its cheaper , but when the time comes I will have no strong objections to changeing over.

 

 

O and lead water pipes are not a major problem as lead does not disolve easily in water. If the big petrol firms such as BP and ESSO have been forced to take lead out of their fuel with all the clout they have what chance do shooters stand when the time comes.

 

As for what the Shooting Times has to say on steel or most other topics I would not beleve a word they print. These days this once great magazine is utter ****. Their editorial staff are much too young to have had much experiance of shooting and their inexperiance shows in many of the articles. Read some of the American balistic reports in magazines such as " Wildfowl , Ducks Unlimited or Field and Stream " and you will get a more balanced point of view.

Edited April 26, 2010 by anser2

[Evil Elvis]

I have made an offer in other posts for an experianced shooter who is a disbelever in steel to join me for a day pigeon decoying later in the year as long as they use steel and are prepared to write up their experiances in the forum. Guess what not a single disbelever has taken me up on the offer. Have so many on here got such closed minds ?

 

Ill bite, and I am fully prepared to east humble pie if im wrong, I didnt see your other post.

 

I use lead mainly because at the moment its cheaper , but when the time comes I will have no strong objections to changeing over.

 

Actually clay loads in steel ate a little cheaper!"!

Edited April 26, 2010 by Evil Elvis

[MadMatt1979]

Shall we add a little bit of science to this thread and try to settle this one with a little bit of tangible FACT rather than a whole load of conjecture and opinion?!!!

 

The statement that going up two sizes versus lead is based on some reasonable fact. Given leads density at around 11000kg/cubic metre and steels at around 7850kg/cubic metre then, based on ENGLISH shot sizes the following is true.

 

No 5 shot is .110" dia. Lead in this shot size is .126g per single shot and steel .09g

 

No 4 shot is .12" dia. Lead would be .1634g and steel .1167g

 

No 3 shot is .13" dia. Lead would be .1977g and steel .141g (almost the same as no. 5 lead see?!!!)

 

No 1 shot is .14" dia. Lead would be .28g and steel .1999g (almost the same as no. 3 lead see?!!!!)

 

BB shot is .16" dia. Lead would be .397g and steel .283g (almost the same as no. 1 lead see?!!!!!)

 

SOOOOOOO the advice of move up two sizes from lead to steel hold some good basis in scientific fact (it will give roughly the same pellet mass relationship).

 

Now, assuming that our pellets have the same mass and move at the same speed (lets say 1400fps) then, according to the well known and widely accepted formula that Kinetic Energy = half mass multiplied by velocity squared then, steel (if its pellet mass is the same as the lead load used, even if the pellet diameter is different!) will perform as well as lead! This of course does not allow for increased air resistance due to larger diameter pellets and also assumes that lead and steel are fired at the same velocity.

 

So, to sum up, go up TWO shot sizes and shove it up your barrels faster than a lead load and hey presto! Steel will be just as good at taking things out! Science lesson over and end of argument???

 

So, there. You have to get out there and give it a go lad! Try it, if you still don`t get on with it, don`t blame the cartridge or the gun, blame yourself! Its totally different to lead so it takes time to get used to the change, and most importantly PRACTICE!!!!!!.

 

I don`t agree with a ban on lead shot and I don`t agree with BASC and the likes appearing to do it behind its members backs, but I do know this much. Steel will, in the right hands and the right circumstances do the job just as well as lead.

[chezza1986]

O and lead water pipes are not a major problem as lead does not disolve easily in water. If the big petrol firms such as BP and ESSO have been forced to take lead out of their fuel with all the clout they have what chance do shooters stand when the time comes.

I don't think that comparison is fair as burning the lead as in car fuel is slightly ( and I really mean a big deal) different than it laying on the ground being weathered and animals digesting the shot which is what the antis are arguing over. True the big petrol firms do have some clout but their toxins were and still are seriously polluting the atmosphere but if you look at them there are alternatives to petrol motors, like steel shot not perfect alternatives but a choice none the less. why do you think that petrol hasn't been banned fossil fuels yet :blink: How much money would the government loose if they banned petrol and how much would they loose if they banned lead shot

Edited April 27, 2010 by chezza1986

[MC]

I don't think that comparison is fair as burning the lead as in car fuel is slightly ( and I really mean a big deal) different than it laying on the ground being weathered and animals digesting the shot which is what the antis are arguing over. True the big petrol firms do have some clout but their toxins were and still are seriously polluting the atmosphere but if you look at them there are alternatives to petrol motors, like steel shot not perfect alternatives but a choice none the less. why do you think that petrol hasn't been banned fossil fuels yet :blink: How much money would the government loose if they banned petrol and how much would they loose if they banned lead shot

 

 

The difference is there is no viable alternative to petrol or diesel, yet there is several alternatives to lead shot.

[al4x]

Interestingly the Lead in petrol made a huge difference to the lead in peoples bloodstreams,

getting them to well within current safe levels. This makes a good read on the subject with a decent review of the "evidence" available

 

http://www.bds.org.uk/c2/uploads/lead%20re...es%20report.pdf

 

Has anyone been lamping with steel as I'd be interested whether it sparks on flints as logic says it should, which could be an issue rabbiting on summer stubbles, the other side issue is what does largeish steel shot embedded in trees do to chainsaw chains and milling equipment. If it damages them then you can see a pretty serious problem in the making there

[George1990]

Another example of changing something that ain't broke. Using steel is encouraging change - something which I don't do.

 

I will never use steel shot all the time lead isn't much more expensive, and certainly not on live quarry. And my guns aren't steel proofed.

 

Steel is poo.