Lapua rifle brass

[Vipa]

Privi made the brass for Lapua for years hence the quality of their stuff now.

 

Interesting!?

 

Just happened to have some once fired privi 6.5x55 brass and some once fired Federal brass. Assuming that Lapua is even better quality and more uniform than Federal the results are interesting.

 

I weighed 10 pieces from each manufacturer and found the following......

 

Privi brass average weight 184.53gn with a variance (standard deviation) accross the sample group of 1.009.

 

Federal brass average weight 191.28gn with a variance (SD) of 0.445.

 

That would suggest to me that the Privi stuff is of a significantly lower quality than the Fed both in terms of initial production values and quality control/uniformity.

Edited May 30, 2010 by Vipa

[Vince Green]

Is that right ... ? Prvi is good stuff, no doubt about that. Do you have some evidence for this please?

That is correct apparantly. For many years ammunition manufacturers in Europe have increasingly subcontracted work to each other to keep down costs. For each manufacturer to make all of the cases in their range of calibres with all the tooling and production costs involved would be uneconomical. Espescially as a lot of calibres don't have particularly big demand. Hunters don't get through a lot of ammunition and its seasonal.

 

Privi has apparantly become the favoured case maker for not just Lapua but other manufacturers as well. Presumably because their costs are lower than anybody else's.

 

It only mirrors what is happening in other industries. Take cars for example. Loads of "German" cars are made in Eastern Europe now and many new cars have engines fitted that come from apparantly rival manufacturers. As for the ancillaries they can come from anywhere. Nothing is what it seems anymore

Edited May 31, 2010 by Vince Green

[Vince Green]

Interesting!?

 

Just happened to have some once fired privi 6.5x55 brass and some once fired Federal brass. Assuming that Lapua is even better quality and more uniform than Federal the results are interesting.

 

I weighed 10 pieces from each manufacturer and found the following......

 

Privi brass average weight 184.53gn with a variance (standard deviation) accross the sample group of 1.009.

 

Federal brass average weight 191.28gn with a variance (SD) of 0.445.

 

That would suggest to me that the Privi stuff is of a significantly lower quality than the Fed both in terms of initial production values and quality control/uniformity.

You have to be sure that the cases in your sample came from the same batch or at least the same box. Also if they were fired cases things like powder residue levels come into it. It gets more complicated the more you get into it. Also, how much it actually matters is debatable, heavier cases are not necessarily better than lighter cases otherwise military ammunition would be better. The extractor rim on a rifle case is often machined and that can throw up big weight discrepancies.

 

At what level things like this affect your shooting is the critical question. its always best to strive for consistancy but it can become an issue in its own right .

[JackReady]

That is correct apparantly. For many years ammunition manufacturers in Europe have increasingly subcontracted work to each other to keep down costs. For each manufacturer to make all of the cases in their range of calibres with all the tooling and production costs involved would be uneconomical. Espescially as a lot of calibres don't have particularly big demand. Hunters don't get through a lot of ammunition and its seasonal.

 

Privi has apparantly become the favoured case maker for not just Lapua but other manufacturers as well. Presumably because their costs are lower than anybody else's.

 

Vince

 

Thanks for answering the question.

 

They also manufacture ammunition for other brands around the world namely the USA, Australia, and South Africa. Wolf Gold is their big seller out in the US

[Vipa]

You have to be sure that the cases in your sample came from the same batch or at least the same box. Also if they were fired cases things like powder residue levels come into it. It gets more complicated the more you get into it. Also, how much it actually matters is debatable, heavier cases are not necessarily better than lighter cases otherwise military ammunition would be better. The extractor rim on a rifle case is often machined and that can throw up big weight discrepancies.

 

At what level things like this affect your shooting is the critical question. its always best to strive for consistancy but it can become an issue in its own right .

 

Both sample groups were from the same box/batch and both sets were in exactly the same state, fired once from the factory load and uncleaned.

 

From a reloading perspective the more brass in the case initially means potentially more available firing/thinning/sizing/length cutting opportunities. Thinner/lighter brass initially is more likely to become brittle quicker and too thin to safely reload without the neck or other part of the case failing.

 

As long as there's enough room in there for propellant, the more brass the better

[Vince Green]

Again, not necessarily, just to play devils advocate for the sake of keeping the discussion going for a while longer. There are many different types and compositions of brass. Cartridge necks don't split because the neck has thinned. They split because the ductility is not up to it. Thick brass gives uneven neck tensions, the first stage in making your cartridges accurate is to turn the necks down to a uniform thickness.

[Vipa]

Again, not necessarily, just to play devils advocate for the sake of keeping the discussion going for a while longer. There are many different types and compositions of brass. Cartridge necks don't split because the neck has thinned. They split because the ductility is not up to it. Thick brass gives uneven neck tensions, the first stage in making your cartridges accurate is to turn the necks down to a uniform thickness.

 

 

That maybe so but getting back to the original reason for the thread... Lapua is seen as being the mutts nuts... we can therefore assume that Federal SHOULD be of slightly lower quality. One good indicator of production quality is weight uniformity. The Lapuas should therefore have a lower batch weight variance than the Feds yet the Privi batch had double the variance of the Feds which would suggest poorer production methods and in particular poorer quality control. If Privi make the Lapua brass their reputation for being the best would, with samples like these, soon be shot to pieces!?

[mikee]

This is all really interesting stuff, I have just decided to start reloading for my .243, ive been collecting brass and buying reloading bits and bobs for a while, i saved around 200 Hornady cases from the same batch, have also got a regular supply of Norma brass from a couple of mates who dont reload these are unlikely to be from the same manufacture batch but i guess with some weighing and measuring i can sort into similar weight and size groups.

 

already got some powder scales from shot shell reloading, just bought some RCBS dies of here and a rock chucker press of ebay from the states, over the next few weeks i am going to get all the little bits and bobs, deburing tool, primer pocket cleaner, vernier calipers etc.

 

Cant wait to get started

 

mikee

[Vince Green]

That maybe so but getting back to the original reason for the thread... Lapua is seen as being the mutts nuts... we can therefore assume that Federal SHOULD be of slightly lower quality. One good indicator of production quality is weight uniformity. The Lapuas should therefore have a lower batch weight variance than the Feds yet the Privi batch had double the variance of the Feds which would suggest poorer production methods and in particular poorer quality control. If Privi make the Lapua brass their reputation for being the best would, with samples like these, soon be shot to pieces!?

Again to keep the discussion going. the level of quality control in any manufacturing process is discretionary. Take RG for example their standards are not that high for normal military grade ammunition but when they want to they can produce the better quality Greenspot for match and sniper use. What a manufacturer considers acceptable is not necessarily the best quality they are capable of producing if required to do so.

[markbivvy]

Lapua is seen as being the mutts nuts.

Might have been years ago but as already said in the thread they put the work out to others.

2006 or 7 they dropped the 222 brass for starters, the rest is or will be history.

Edited May 31, 2010 by markbivvy

[tinytim38]

Good coments and a lot of disscusion centered around my initial thread, so what is the best brass for reloading? given that lapua is 3x the price and I dont shoot a benchrest rifle but want to improve upon factory ammo, which I did not mind paying for untill I noticed some very bad inconsistency, just visually with Federal ammo and a few missed shots which were not down to pilot error.........and yes its three shots touching at 100 yds with homeloads so the rifle/scope set up is good. SO WHAT SHOULD I BUY comments please

[the running man]

why is it so expensive compared to most other makes? what are the advantages of this brass ?

becase its the best there is,case closed end of story.

[Vipa]

Good coments and a lot of disscusion centered around my initial thread, so what is the best brass for reloading? given that lapua is 3x the price and I dont shoot a benchrest rifle but want to improve upon factory ammo, which I did not mind paying for untill I noticed some very bad inconsistency, just visually with Federal ammo and a few missed shots which were not down to pilot error.........and yes its three shots touching at 100 yds with homeloads so the rifle/scope set up is good. SO WHAT SHOULD I BUY comments please

 

 

I too am finding this thread interesting.... I'm one of those sad people who will take everything as far as it will go in search of perfection! Sadly, in the 95% use my rifle gets put to, all of this is largely irrelevant. Taking deer at sub 100yds will be acheived with pretty much anything I put through her!

 

I'm happy to keep this thread going in search of the answer to life the universe and cloverleafs but in reality the key to the most accurate load is experimentation.... every rifle, even the same model from the same factory, will have it's 'sweetheart' round and a sweetheart round in one rifle may well prove to be the bitch from hell round in the next! However, we can minimize the variations by chosing the best starting components (theoretically!)

 

I'm surprised at the Federal factory rounds giving you flyers, usually Rolls Royce gear and 140gn Powershoks through myTikka produce cloverleafs or better... just goes to show that what's good for one isn't necessarily good for another!

 

What's the make up of the greenspot factory rounds?

[garyb]

My pet load runs a whole grain lighter in Lapua brass compared to Rem, Norma etc - so theres a (small) saving in powder alone.

[Vipa]

My pet load runs a whole grain lighter in Lapua brass compared to Rem, Norma etc - so theres a (small) saving in powder alone.

 

Is that due to tighter manufacturing tollerances do you think? I've heard folk mention elsewhere that some of the american brass is (relatively) miles of being the dimensions they should be!

[Harnser]

I too like most of you was in search of the holy grail of rifle shooting , the sub MOA groups at 200 yards . I too like most of you will, gave up that silly quest many years ago ,because it just is not necessary to kill deer clean at ranges up to 200 yards .

Harnser .

Edited May 31, 2010 by Harnser

[Vipa]

I too like most of you was in search of the holy grail of rifle shooting , the sub MOA groups at 200 yards . I too like most of you will, gave up that silly quest many years ago ,because it just is not necessary .

 

Harnser .

 

Yeahhh... but it's fun playing at the reloading bench

[garyb]

Is that due to tighter manufacturing tollerances do you think? I've heard folk mention elsewhere that some of the american brass is (relatively) miles of being the dimensions they should be!

 

The brass is thicker, less volume.

 

 

Harnser - agreed.

 

But... it is almost "fun" and I get enjoyment from fine tuning, like some folk like too tune engines.

[tinytim38]

Vipa, thanks for your reply, the fedral powershock I was refering to had a variance of 3mm overall length and were not grouping as you would expect from premium ammo, this is why I began reloading , I like you when I start somehting I want perfection but within the parameters of the materials used,in short lapua is the best but given that I am not shooting benchrest what is the best of the rest? or should I buy Lapua........it not down to money I was just wondering.........I dont shoot that many rounds to make it a financial decision but when I pull the trigger if I miss I want it to be only my fault

[Harnser]

Yeahhh... but it's fun playing at the reloading bench

 

You are quite right viper I too had my fun . Also the expence ,the fraustration and the danger of turning into a reloading nerd whos only conversation is with other reloading nerds . When I reload now its just one bullet , 150 grain spitzer soft point with 45 grains of vit 140 and I dont give a toss what cases I use . This load is slightly down loaded and will shot MOA at 100 yards in my light weight ruger . Perhaps I should just add I am talking .308 .

Harnser .

Edited May 31, 2010 by Harnser

[Vipa]

had a variance of 3mm overall length

 

Christ.... that's horrendous!!!

[the running man]

I too am finding this thread interesting.... I'm one of those sad people who will take everything as far as it will go in search of perfection! Sadly, in the 95% use my rifle gets put to, all of this is largely irrelevant. Taking deer at sub 100yds will be acheived with pretty much anything I put through her!

 

I'm happy to keep this thread going in search of the answer to life the universe and cloverleafs but in reality the key to the most accurate load is experimentation.... every rifle, even the same model from the same factory, will have it's 'sweetheart' round and a sweetheart round in one rifle may well prove to be the bitch from hell round in the next! However, we can minimize the variations by chosing the best starting components (theoretically!)

 

I'm surprised at the Federal factory rounds giving you flyers, usually Rolls Royce gear and 140gn Powershoks through myTikka produce cloverleafs or better... just goes to show that what's good for one isn't necessarily good for another!

 

What's the make up of the greenspot factory rounds?

excuse me for cutting in,I'm just referring to the greenspot thing,if ure on about military greenspot its the first 5000 rounds out of 100,000 production run the idea being the dies arnt worn down for the first 5000 so they should have a constant about them.they go to snipers,the rest goes to the grunts! This problem of die wear is why u get a variation in consistency with factory loads,remember a factory is not gonna check every round it makes,but u do while home loading.this is why all the top shots reload their own.

[Vipa]

excuse me for cutting in,I'm just referring to the greenspot thing,if ure on about military greenspot its the first 5000 rounds out of 100,000 production run the idea being the dies arnt worn down for the first 5000 so they should have a constant about them.they go to snipers,the rest goes to the grunts! This problem of die wear is why u get a variation in consistency with factory loads,remember a factory is not gonna check every round it makes,but u do while home loading.this is why all the top shots reload their own.

 

Cheers for that.... you learn something new every day

[v-max]

Lapua brass is very good due to its quality of mix in making the brass & there tolerance. They also anneal there rifle cases which helps with neck tension & prelongs neck life of brass. If you have plenty money get it if not with a good case preb system & some homeloading to find your rifles sweet spot you could do well with most if not any brass. I take what i can in the cal's i need & heve a range from federal/remmy/sako/PMC/winchester etc.

[the running man]

Cheers for that.... you learn something new every day

its ok vipa im full of useless information like that!!!