Panorama BBC1 now!

[Guest rimotu66]

Sorry if this is a repost but tonights Panorama is about last Wednesday....

[apache]

I am watching

[al4x]

same here, get the feeling there are some real stories of bravery we haven't heard about so far

[Paul223]

Did I hear right? did the CO cumbrian police admit that one of their officers was following bird, but some how managed to loose bird , and the reason was because this officer was not armed so could not engage

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

Did I hear right? did the CO cumbrian police admit that one of their officers was following bird, but some how managed to loose bird , and the reason was because this officer was not armed so could not engage

 

No he said that Bird shot a member of the public then the officer when to aid of person found he?she was dead and then took up the chase again.

I think that would be standard protcol for said situation .

 

Cheers OTH

[djrwood]

I only saw a small part of this but im sure they were saying that the first operation is to ensure the scene is safe and then they can proceed to try and capture him. Wasnt this the reason that the helicopter could not be used incase bird shot at it?

 

Dan

[Paul223]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00st...rian_Shootings/

 

13 mins onwards police followed

 

edit from 11.30 onwards, police car and a civilian car with a copper in it, ?

 

and this was at 10.35am

Edited June 8, 2010 by Paul223

[njc110381]

Am I the only one who feels that there should be a military involvement in cases like this? If the forces were more closely linked then perhaps something like an Apache could have been sent up from a local military base? I know it sounds well over the top but as soon as the pilot had a positive ID and the guys car hit a country lane with no other visible humans in sight he could have been targeted with something heavier than the police could ever hope to use?

 

As I said above it sounds extreme but fixing a hole in the lane is a small price to pay for human lives. That sort of engagement wouldn't be called for every day anyway but in extreme cases it could certainly put a halt to any messing about!

[Beardo]

one treads on very dangerous territory when the military can be called on the civilian population, it's not a path i would like to ever go down

[njc110381]

one treads on very dangerous territory when the military can be called on the civilian population, it's not a path i would like to ever go down

 

 

I know what you're saying, but ultimately it would only be used in extreme cases where several lives could be saved by eliminating one. I don't think it would ever lead to scenes of Apaches hovering over football stadiums in case something kicked off.

 

I think the UK forces are very well trained and would be capable of carrying out a mission like this without a mishap nine times out of ten. Considering things like this tend to happen about every ten years that's not bad odds really! If this guys car had been hit with a Hellfire as soon as he left a built up area it could have been sorted so much more quickly.

[al4x]

so we have people expecting an unarmed officer to take on a guy who knows how to use and has used a shotgun and rifle on people are you crazy?

 

The officer involved comandeered a civilian car and followed till the guy hit someone else and administered first aid, then a transit van took over the chase which was threatened and lost when he drove off at high speed. These are rural officers not magicians in this circumstance I think you'll find they stepped over protocol etc by getting close and should have waited for firearms teams. They were following a taxi driver who would know the roads well and who covered enough distance to just stay ahead of them. We all know what would have happened with the military, even more bystanders would have died. Personally I think the chief constable is getting grief for nothing and 20K odd a year isn't enough to pay unarmed officers to put themselves infront of a shotgun with no backup

[Paul223]

so we have people expecting an unarmed officer to take on a guy who knows how to use and has used a shotgun and rifle on people are you crazy?

No, I'd expect the unarmed officer to follow, directing ARU's in, and or blocking off a narrow lane after bird had passed down it (when you know there are armed coppers at the other end) and leaving his vehicle to retreat to a safe area

[the running man]

Am I the only one who feels that there should be a military involvement in cases like this? If the forces were more closely linked then perhaps something like an Apache could have been sent up from a local military base? I know it sounds well over the top but as soon as the pilot had a positive ID and the guys car hit a country lane with no other visible humans in sight he could have been targeted with something heavier than the police could ever hope to use?

 

As I said above it sounds extreme but fixing a hole in the lane is a small price to pay for human lives. That sort of engagement wouldn't be called for every day anyway but in extreme cases it could certainly put a halt to any messing about!

wats the weather like on you're planet my freind? Do u know how long it takes to power up an apache? Or how much money they cost in fuel alone? And don't forget the home secratary has to sign local command to the army,with very strict rules of engagement,that takes time. Ure idea is sound but impractical,a predator or other drone would be a better ideanu could launch immeadiateley.

[al4x]

No, I'd expect the unarmed officer to follow, directing ARU's in, and or blocking off a narrow lane after bird had passed down it (when you know there are armed coppers at the other end) and leaving his vehicle to retreat to a safe area

 

 

they did follow till he stopped and threatened them, they had traffic behind so couldn't reverse out of the way so really after one threat should they then give their lives up? Then they tried to follow at a distance asking people if they had seen him etc but couldn't find him. We can't really comment as we weren't there but to me following a man who has clearly gone off the rails when unarmed does merit these police a bravery award of some sort. The Chief constable was getting flack on panorama and it wasn't deserved Cumbria is a huge county without many people so getting cars to intercept a local cabbie who knows the area well isn't as easy as people would make out. Under normal circumstances you wouldn't have a guy shooting random people in a rural area that is the situation that is very hard to prepare for. Hindsight is a great thing but just think with reactions like appache helicopters etc how easy it is to get the wrong person it happens and the repercussions go on for years just ask the poor guy on the tube.

[the running man]

so we have people expecting an unarmed officer to take on a guy who knows how to use and has used a shotgun and rifle on people are you crazy?

 

The officer involved comandeered a civilian car and followed till the guy hit someone else and administered first aid, then a transit van took over the chase which was threatened and lost when he drove off at high speed. These are rural officers not magicians in this circumstance I think you'll find they stepped over protocol etc by getting close and should have waited for firearms teams. They were following a taxi driver who would know the roads well and who covered enough distance to just stay ahead of them. We all know what would have happened with the military, even more bystanders would have died. Personally I think the chief constable is getting grief for nothing and 20K odd a year isn't enough to pay unarmed officers to put themselves infront of a shotgun with no backup

I don't agree with you al4x,those 2 police officers could have rammed his car at any point,how could he shoot back if they ploughed into him from behind? Others could have also rammed him,perhaps even trapping him in his own car,if those 2 officers had enough thought to run out of the van and hide round the back (presenting better targets for the gunman) then they could have at least rammed him first,transit van against a car ummm I reckon they could have even put birds car on its side.in my eyes they missed an opportunity to save 9 human beings from their deaths...on other forums there is talk and crys of cowardice,so much so I herd on the news ipcc is now involved. And why has it taken a week for this to come to light?

[al4x]

what ram him and imobilize their own vehicle. What a good idea if you have a death wish, its very hard to ran a car from the rear and imobilise a front seat occupant. Transit vans have the engine at the front in a very small space and if you have a fairly minor prang the fuel inertia cutoff switch engages most of the time.

[KFC]

The initial Police chase was with an unarmed non-firearms trained officer in a civilian car with a civilian driving and doing what they thought was right at the time.

This included tending an injured man, trying to save his life.

 

 

20/20 hindsight is a miraculous gift that gives vision to everyone but, with only three such events in the last fifty years, I doubt they had the resources on immediate standby for such an event.

 

I didn't really see the point in the programme anyway. All he did was drive along the same route as Bird and described what happened.

Well the newspapers had told us that anyway.

 

Other than the facts of what happened, I didn't really see any point that the program was trying to make.

[the running man]

what ram him and imobilize their own vehicle. What a good idea if you have a death wish, its very hard to ran a car from the rear and imobilise a front seat occupant. Transit vans have the engine at the front in a very small space and if you have a fairly minor prang the fuel inertia cutoff switch engages most of the time.

fair point,but the police imobilized their own car by getting out of it,who cares if they smash up the transit as long as they had imobilized bird and his car,if nothing else the aru would have got to him a lot quicker even if he managed to get to his feet.

[al4x]

they would have had to hit it very hard to immobilise him, hard enough that odds are they would have been left injured in the transit cab, had they failed odds are he would have got out and shot them with nothing they could do. Its great thinking what if but the only answer in this case looking back was to get an armed officer close enough to shoot him. That isn't easy when you are dealing with someone who is mobile and armed

Edited June 8, 2010 by al4x

[Paul223]

Following him was also a civilian car, unmarked, driven by another taxi driver who would have know the area as well as bird did (from a point of view which road were on, where it leads to etc), with a copper in the passenger seat with a radio in his pocket, clearly a missed opportunity, yes looking at it with hind sight but i cant help feel the police shyed away from the situation, or were told by a commanding officer to, all just IMHO

 

sometimes some people just do, rather than think is 20k enough to do this job and no I'm not thinking I'd be all macho and ramboish before anyone suggests it

Edited June 8, 2010 by Paul223

[Vipa]

Am I the only one who feels that there should be a military involvement in cases like this? If the forces were more closely linked then perhaps something like an Apache could have been sent up from a local military base? I know it sounds well over the top but as soon as the pilot had a positive ID and the guys car hit a country lane with no other visible humans in sight he could have been targeted with something heavier than the police could ever hope to use?

 

As I said above it sounds extreme but fixing a hole in the lane is a small price to pay for human lives. That sort of engagement wouldn't be called for every day anyway but in extreme cases it could certainly put a halt to any messing about!

 

NEVER deploy your military on home soil other than at times of war or martial law! That's not what they are there for!

 

What we should have is an armed and relevantly (is that a word?) trained police force just like almost every other country in the world. I know we take pride in our bobby with his truncheon and silly hat but this is the 21st century with 21st century problems, 21st century criminals and 21st century nutters!

 

I remember watching a film once where the Army Commanding General made a relavent coment (I know it's Hollywood but true) "The Army is a broadsword not a scalpel" This needed precision, the use of military hardware would have run the very real risk of massive collateral damage.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Vipa

[al4x]

should that copper have left one of his victims without giving first aid? that is why he stopped following, I think that guy did just do what he could with what was available, he knew there was a police van behind to follow on.

[the running man]

they would have had to hit it very hard to immobilise him, hard enough that odds are they would have been left injured in the transit cab, had they failed odds are he would have got out and shot them with nothing they could do. Its great thinking what if but the only answer in this case looking back was to get an armed officer close enough to shoot him. That isn't easy when you are dealing with someone who is mobile and armed

ure all right I think.none of us were there,I do think they missed a trick. I forget I've been shot at twice and threatend with firearms a few times to,so I see the inccident a little diffrently, ultimately the main thing is as cameron says u can't legislate against lunacy.

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

Its very clear some have never dealt with close combat as there views on any unarmed man tackling a armed one.

 

I was tipping hercs just outsde of bazra in op telic and when the bullets are whizzing round the pan you think S%%t I am glad I am not face to face with whoever is shooting.

 

Kind regards Oth and a little thought needs to go into some of the posts before posting them.

[Gordon R]

The Police did what they are paid for and probably a lot more.

 

As for ramming the car and turning it over. The standard Police driving course doesn't cover how to do this safely or even unsafely. It would have been a real gamble and could have ended up even worse.

 

This is something seen more often in the USA, where the Police are well armed.

 

I really don't comprehend the flak the Police are getting from people who were not there, but sit in judgement in the safety of a nice chair, whilst they pound the keyboard. I suspect it was a little more dangerous in Cumbria.