History of Coaching

[COACH]

Ahh!

Yeah, if only hey, if only.

[Chard]

lost me a bit but i think its prices and targets from 1929. 90 years ago. i think

 

 

I heard you were doing full day coaching sessions for £2.50.

 

Can you put my name down for a course of 5 please, I'll pop a cheque in the post

[beretta]

plus vat

[Chard]

plus vat

 

 

Is that VAT at the new rate of 25000%?

[beretta]

dont get me going.

[wymberley]

lost me a bit but i think its prices and targets from 1929. 90 years ago. i think

 

Yep, the charges when EJ Churchill opened the ground c1929.

Cheers

[Nial]

Corporate swing through / smoke trail ( as a non-method at competition level to be identified and eliminated from a shooters style)

 

 

Clayman, what is corporate swing through?

 

 

Nial.

[clayman]

Clayman, what is corporate swing through?

 

 

Nial.

 

When you have person of limited ability, and a short time frame to get any level of performance from them, the classic method of giving them some level of satisfaction is to use the method we call "corporate swing through", AKA smoke-trail.

 

the principle is that is you get a client to wind the gun back to the earliest point they see the clay it will get the jump on them, but the gun is on the flight line. They then follow up behind the clay on the smoketrail ( as if the clay had a Red Arrow smoke line running out behind it), and shoot straight at the clay. ie slash the clay and shoot at it.

 

As the gun is moving significantly faster than the clay, lead is always applied on the flightline.

 

This gives a very early level of success, but has the long term difficulty that the best scores obtainable are around 50-60% as the shotload is typically in front but the shooter has little control on lead, and struggles to replicate successful lead application as the method relies on consistent swing speeds and exact trigger timing.

 

Established coaches come across many self taught or badly taught clients that adopt this method from the onset, think they are doing brilliantly at 30 ex 50 or so, but two years later are still doing the same.

 

They never see forward allowance, and never know why they hit some and miss others.

 

This is incorrect application of swing through, and needs to be un-taught if the shooter is to progress to B or A standards.

 

Correct swing through has a later gun hold, around the visual pick-up point, and involves a steady and controlled overtaking of the target in a situation where the slower gun speed allows the shooter to see and control the forward allowance.

 

So, in coaching terms, the method "swing through" has an acceptable definition and an unacceptable one - named by me as Corporate Swing Through as its often used at hav-a-go etc.

 

This is also Churchill method.

 

Employed by EJC with his short and fast swinging 25" barrelled guns in a game situation it gave early success to mediocre shots, and sold his guns - but is quite unsuitable for higher performance.

Edited August 31, 2010 by clayman

[Chard]

When you have person of limited ability, and a short time frame to get any level of performance from them, the classic method of giving them some level of satisfaction is to use the method we call "corporate swing through", AKA smoke-trail.

 

the principle is that is you get a client to wind the gun back to the earliest oint they see the clay it will get the jump on them, but the gun is on the flight line. They then follow up behind the clay on the smoketrail ( as if the clay had a Red Arrow smoke line running out behind it), and shoot straight at the clay. ie slash the clay and shoot at it.

 

As the gun is moving significantly faster than the clay, lead is always applied on the flightline.

 

This gives a very early level of success, but has the long term difficulty that the best scores obtainable are around 50-60% as the shotload is typically in front but the shooter has little control on lead, and struggles to replicate successful lead application as the method relies on consistent swing speeds and exact trigger timing.

 

Established coaches come across many self taught or badly taught clients that adopt this method from the onset, think they are doing brilliantly at 30 ex 50 or so, but two years later are still doing the same.

 

They never see forward allowance, and never know why they hit some and miss others.

 

This is incorrect application of swing through, and needs to be un-taught if the shooter is to progress to B or A standards.

 

Correct swing through has a later gun hold, around the visual pick-up point, and involves a steady and controlled overtaking of the target in a situation where the slower gun speed allows the shooter to see and control the forward allowance.

 

So, in coaching terms, the method "swing through" has an acceptable definition and an unacceptable one - named by me as Corporate Swing Through as its often used at hav-a-go etc.

 

This is also Churchill method.

 

Employed by EJC with his short and fast swinging 25" barrelled guns in a game situation it gave early success to mediocre shots, and sold his guns - but is quite unsuitable for higher performance.

 

 

Very good explanation

 

They originally taught me like this and I've been wondering why :o

 

It's been quite difficult to undo that method and change :blink:

Edited August 31, 2010 by Chard

[Salopian]

A very interesting topic, not very easily answered as shooting instruction is steeped in history attached to the development of the shotgun by the English guntrade in the early 19th century. Most of what has been posted by Clayman is nearly correct, and as he says to the best of his knowledge. But it really does go back way before the CPSA and 'the gang of four '.

Any student of coaching would do very well to read the books by Stanbury, Churchill ( Max Hastings) Chris Craddock etc., Also perhaps speak to Mike Alldiss about the early years at CPSA with Peter Page.

What I can say is that coaching is very well represented in the UK by possibly the oldest coaching organisation The Guild of Shooting Instructors.

An organisation that was founded by Michael Rose chief instructor at West London and Purdey gunfitter, the late Peter Crabtree who went on to become the chief instructor for NSCA in America at San Antonia, Albert Cochrane of Dorset, Peter Harris of Shropshire etc.,

Coaching is a very immotive subject and really not very well done or appreciated here in the UK as it is in the US.

Fundamentally the fault in the UK is that most pupils want an instant one hour 'fix' not a structured development course. How many people do you know who have taken a multi-week development coaching/training course in clayshooting?

I have been shooting for 50 years and still learn every time I go out with the gun, why? Because I enjoy it, I set myself new challenges and due to age and health the goalposts often move. The important thing is enjoy it, after all it is a sport and a hobby.

[clayman]

Does anyone know anything about the history of coaching competition clayshooting in the UK as distinct from game shooting . When did it start ? Who started it ? How did it develop to where we are now?If you can help please send me whatever you can .

 

TC's post was to ask the history of coaching in competition clays, and I've sought to answer that from personal knowledge of the CPSA programme. I was not suggesting the snippets I have placed are comprehensive, there will always be other schools of coaching and systems in place.

 

The great Classic coaches, Stanbury, Churchill etc have a long history, but their methods were primarily based on S/S game shooting instruction rather than competitive clays.

 

I would hope everything I have said IS correct ( when placed as fact), or is expressed as my opinion, when the info is subjective.

 

My info is only part of the story, but its a very interesting one, and the more info (fact) and views (opinion) that any-one can add the better.

 

I see Mike from time to time, so lets see what info prior to the Gang of Four I can drag out of him.

 

JPY

[Salopian]

JPY, Clayman,

Indeed you have answered TC's question correctly using the knowledge available to hand.

I have attempted to show how long the history of claycoaching really is. To say that Stanbury and Churchill concentrated on game shooting instruction is incorrect Percy Stanbury was a very accomplished clayshooting champion, winning numerous county championship, opens and English & British.

Churchill sold guns by virtue of winning open championships and live bird shoots in Britain and Europe including Spain, Portugal,France, and Monte Carlo, I can assure you that clayshooting instruction started long before the CPSA came into existance.

In fact there are many fine clayshooting coaches who teach to a very fine standard of instruction who have never had any formal instructor training or belong to any shooting organisation (unfortunately) they just have a natural ability to convey sound techniques normally gained from days afield gameshooting, after all that is why shooting schools were founded.