Latest BASC Magazine

[David BASC]

Good old Graham, gets his facts muddled to try and support his anti BASC stance!

 

The 'pigeon day' was 10 years ago.

 

Up to 1990 13 species of bird were listed as pests under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. Following a dispute in Germany this arrangement in Britain was held to be in breech of the EU Birds Directive and had this gone to the European Court of Justice the probability was that all pest birds in Britain would have closed seasons, subject to special licences. Very restrictive on pigeon shooting as you can imagine.

 

BASC opposed this and ran a successful lobbying campaign which led to the Open General licence we have today, i.e. giving any authorised person the right to take pigeons if they were causing damage and other methods of control wouldn’t work

 

The NGO’s desire to run this ‘10,000 gun salute’ as The Times put it exposed the open general licence to legal challenge, secondly it gave the wrong impression of shooting, indeed The Times reported ‘ Gamekeepers to slaughter a million birds’ not great PR for gamekeepers was it?

Had BASC sat back and done nothing then there was a very real threat that the open general licence for woodpigeon may have been withdrawn. No one would have thanked BASC for allowing for that to happen.

 

On several occasions through January 2000 we contacted the Chair of the NGO asking for talks for ‘all possible co-operation in fending off further adverse repercussions whether in the public media or politically’ and they consistently refused to meet us or discuss the issue. We had little choice to do what we did if pigeon shooting under the open general licence was to continue.

 

There was no ‘back peddling’ on the contrary we had to get the whole situation under control before the Open General licence was renewed and managed to prevent the ‘mass slaughter’ story running in the media again.

 

We have now moved on, the NGO and us, and its water under the bridge, but I can guarantee that people like Graham will keep dragging it up time and time again.

 

But back to the thread, Staff and volunteers and many others associated with BASC work very hard to keep delivering on our objectives and keep shooting safe. It is only right that we should tell our members, through Shooting & Conservation, what we have been doing and what we are working on and what we have delivered for shooting – after all surely that’s what members expect.

 

David

[al4x]

Ok now having read it did find some interesting bits, nice few pieces a bit on lamping, a few on running your shoot 40 odd pages of adverts if you don't include the other load of recycling advertising matter. I did find it somewhat comical we have a nice piece on clarifying their VAT status with regard to certain membership payments then on the following pages we've won a £1.6 million contract. To me businesses making money win contracts so it was a little ironic after clarifying their status for VAT as an association but other than that not bad. You have to accept advertising pays for it and no one makes you read adverts but the pieces that were worth reading took up possibly 10 out of 100 pages. Possibly its worth seeing if you can find more contributors and include more pieces about our sport, something like the Shooting Times bit of crumpet they send out shooting round the country wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Guest cookoff013]

too many adverts in the magazine.

[Pinkfooty]

The complaint about the General Licence for woodies is very illfounded.

 

I am not going to get into the business of slagging off the ignorance of any particular other organisation but you will recall that one of them, a couple of years ago, called for woodpigeon to be taken off a pest control licence and placed on a W&CA schedule allowing them to be shot as a sporting quarry like ducks and geese.

 

What those particular numpties totally ignored was the fact that, under European law, any bird on those W&CA schedules has to have a close season covering its entire breeding season. That's OK for ducks and geese. For woodpigeon the breeding season in UK runs from February to November.

 

WHICH WOULD HAVE MEANT THAT WOODPIGEON COULD ONLY BE SHOT IN DECEMBER AND JANUARY!

 

That is one really ******* brilliant idea, isn't it.

 

Thank God BASC saved us from that one.

 

Thank God that BASC also got the clarification which meant that woodpigeon did not have to be actually damaging crops in the exact location where they are shot. Without that victory, decoying them on stubbles would have been banned.

 

Nothing is ever quite as black and white as some folk would want us to think.

 

On the lead shot for wildfowling issue, BASC fought a ban successfully for 20 years. When it was eventually banned, BASC did NOT "approve" the ban. They continued to say that it was unnecessary and wrong. What they did do was advise members about the pros and cons of alternatives and advise members that, even though it was a bad law, they must abide by it to avoid losing their shotgun certificates. Admittedly, in Scotland, they did negotiate a better arrangement about wetlands rather than species, than in England. But the fact that, in Scotland, BASC delayed the imposition of the ban by a further 3 years is evidence enough that they never gave up and kept fighting for us.

 

At least when I started this thread, I was not wrong in my suggestion that PW is often used as the knocking shop for those who want to knock BASC!

 

[David BASC]

I think, to be fair, very few regularly 'knock' BASC and typically those who do are not members but are staunch supporters of another organisation.

 

OK fair enough we are all entitled to be passionate about our chosen organisation!

 

As I have said before I welcome feedback from members about how we can make the package better, and I welcome constructive criticism from anyone, but misquoting 'facts' to try and put BASC in a bad light is simply counter productive and pointless.

 

Glad so many liked the mag – we have to have some adverts in to help the mag pay its way but hope the editorial copy is interesting and informative.

 

David

[hushpower]

2 of my mates visited one of the country fairs CLA or Mid an the staff were swigging pimms ,thats why the subs are so exspensive they thinks,an jump ship to NGO supporter . no matter what organisation you cannot please every body. to be honest i was getting a bit dissalutioned with basc but having them come in for alot of critisism over lead etc ,will have to be on their mettle an stand up an be counterd,but am still a member

[vulpicide]

After I had John Swift pat me on the head and tell me I didnt understand politics when I took him to task over the terrier "code of conduct" basc put forward in England with no consultation with the National Working Terrier Federation . I spent two years going to meetings in the Scottish parliament as part of the NWTF team with Barrie Wade and John Waters and we didnt end up with the drivel Basc put up just remember this we dont all shoot game or wildfowl and by not consulting with relevant organisations Basc did us all a disservice.

[David BASC]

Oh no, not the accusation of BASC staff swigging Pimms again! Trust me we do NOT get free drinks just because we work for BASC unless of course we get invited to the Shooting Times party at the CLA!

 

And lead- yes plenty of criticism for BASC being one of the few to stand up and fight for lead- over 20 years ago, and now with us all supposed to be working together to fight for lead one or two orgs seem to want to break ranks and try and make out only they, and not BASC ,can stand up and fight for lead!! Where were they 20 years ago?

 

Not sure what the Terrier Code has to do with the latest copy of the BASC mag, but OK hands up, on Terriers - guilty as charged, to the best of my knowledge we did not speak with the NTWF, nor did they talk to us for that mater when the hunting bill was going though Parliament-

 

Yes we did defend the right of 'keepers et al to use terriers to protect game, thought you guys were closer to the CA and they would have fought your corner for other terrier work as BASC had the game preservation angel covered? .As it says on your web site ‘The N.***. works closely with the Countryside Alliance’ Now during the Hunting Bill we kept the CA up to speed with what we were doing and they us….perhaps they did not pass this info on?

 

Also on your own web site it reads ‘In England and Wales, terrier work was similarly fortunate, being the only form of hunting with dogs the Hunting Act (2004) does not seek to ban’ Not much of a moan there about what BASC did…

 

I have read the summary of the English and Scottish code, not that much difference between them as far as I can see- one dog only to flush, reasonable steps to be taken to keep the dog safe, etc although in Scotland I see you are allowed to dig down, and English & Welsh dogs must have a tracking collar - more restrictive I accept, so are you guys and the CA campaigning to get the Scottish Approach in England & Wales?

 

 

But back to the thread - glad you like the now look magazine, and please feed back to the Editor any issues you would like to see covered - after all it’s your mag so please get involved.

 

Thanks

David

[humperdingle]

I've quite enjoyed reading the mag - It's only the second I've received since leaving the CA, but It was pretty good as far as I'm concerned.

 

Also liked the posh toy catalogues too.

[MC]

Ok now having read it did find some interesting bits, nice few pieces a bit on lamping, a few on running your shoot 40 odd pages of adverts if you don't include the other load of recycling advertising matter. I did find it somewhat comical we have a nice piece on clarifying their VAT status with regard to certain membership payments then on the following pages we've won a £1.6 million contract. To me businesses making money win contracts so it was a little ironic after clarifying their status for VAT as an association but other than that not bad. You have to accept advertising pays for it and no one makes you read adverts but the pieces that were worth reading took up possibly 10 out of 100 pages. Possibly its worth seeing if you can find more contributors and include more pieces about our sport, something like the Shooting Times bit of crumpet they send out shooting round the country wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

 

Sounds to me as if someone with plenty to shout about ought to put their money where their mouth is and contribute towards it. After all the same someone has already told us how he is handpicked by Herts police to be a mentor for so many FAC holders.

 

How about a 3 page article about that then Al4x? or are you all mouth and no trousers?

 

If there are only 10 pages worth reading in your opinion then why don't you make it 13?

[Mungler]

I quite like the adverts and glossy stuff. It's a free magazine that lends itself to portable / bog reading - I don't think that it's intention is to be the encycopedia britannica of shooting.

 

If you want more info about anything shooting related try the BASC webby or ask David on here, he seems to me to be pretty helpful to everyone and not just BASC members.

 

Indeed, I am not aware of any other shooting organisation's representatives sticking their heads above the parapet on any shooting forums, save of course to anonymously stick the boot in to BASC when they get the whiff of a chance

[al4x]

Sounds to me as if someone with plenty to shout about ought to put their money where their mouth is and contribute towards it. After all the same someone has already told us how he is handpicked by Herts police to be a mentor for so many FAC holders.

 

How about a 3 page article about that then Al4x? or are you all mouth and no trousers?

 

If there are only 10 pages worth reading in your opinion then why don't you make it 13?

 

 

I reckon you're getting people mixed up MC I'm not a mentor to anybody, However that said I'm fairly sure something could be worked out between us in Herts after all we get a fair bit of decent shooting of all sorts here, certainly if the BASC has any crumpet they want to send out for an evening fox shooting and write about it I'm sure we could organise something. If we look at what the mag does it tells you what BASC have done in the last quarter and has a few pieces on different types of shooting with a fair bit of padding and adverts. I guess if you are online a lot of the news is old news but not everybody is so it has a place. Adverts pay for it which is fair enough though there is the potential to increase the per page cost so you don't need to sell as much though I guess with a decent circulation it probably is a nice little earner (not meant in any detrimental way before anyone jumps on it)

 

oh and p.s I was on the CA stand at Burleigh today and they also had drinks

[Glenshooter]

Just got the BASC mag myself and think it was great. Particularly as an added benefit to membership. I particularly enjoyed reading the article on rangefinders.

 

It amazes me the amount of sniping that some shooters do at the BASC. And the lack of response from these people when they are asked what THEIR organisation is doing for the sport.

 

No organisation can ever be perfect, particularly in a sport with so many different 'interests/branches', but BASC does a pretty good job. And are particularly good when you need help and advice.

 

Well done for threads like this, reminding shooters of just what the BASC are doing. There are many more threads/posts that moan at the BASC, often with the facts being wrong.

Edited September 4, 2010 by Glenshooter

[David BASC]

The VAT issue is in fact very important, not only for BASC but for many other organizations as well I suspect - after all would you rather have your fee spent on keeping shooting safe or going to the tax man? I can't see what is comical about that!

 

Even more important, the case proved in law BASC's key roll in keeping shooting safe in the UK, frankly BASC members should be very proud of this.

 

The contract to promote shooting had nothing at all to do with the VAT issue, but had everything to do with the strength and depth of BASC and our ability to deliver; you only get contracts like this IF you can deliver

 

Being a members mag rather than a 'news stand mag' it will always carry a range of news items specifically saying what BASC have delivered over the past 8 weeks or so and what issues are coming up.

 

After all members pay a fee to BASC and we make clear that we aim to deliver on the 5 Key Objectives that will keep shooting safe, so its only right that we should tell members exactly what we are doing!

 

I think you will find this is the same for all membership mags and newsletters.

 

Of course we will also carry editorial on other shooting related matters which we hope will inform and be of interest.

 

The next magazine is already in design and will be out in early November

 

Best wishes

 

David

[Grandalf]

I am the secretary of a wildfowling syndicate operating on a small marsh on the East Anglian coast. We have been in existence for twenty five years. The marsh is now owned by Natural England and is part of a large SSI. Life will never be easy for us! After the flood damage following the tidal surge in 2007 we lost our licence. (NE refused to renew it). For eighteen months Mark Greenhough and Ian Danby of BASC supported our campaign. They were involved in on-site meetings, telephone conferences, normal telephone calls by the tens and emails by the hundreds. We needed professional and, above all, scientific support and we got it in spades! Bird count records, tidal effects, disturbance, historical records and much more was brought to bear on our landlords. We eventually got our licance renewed for last season only. We have it again for this year but with additional major restrictions. After two and a half years the campaign continues. Can any of you anti-BASC brigade tell me where a six member syndicate could have got that level of support other than from BASC?

By the way, I am in my 70's, was a WAGBI member and have not always agreed with the policies of BASC - but no large organisation can please all of the people all of the time.

[Pinkfooty]

By the way, I am in my 70's, was a WAGBI member and have not always agreed with the policies of BASC - but no large organisation can please all of the people all of the time.

 

That is a very important point Grandalf.

 

BASC really only purports to cover live quarry shooting with shotguns, rifles and air-rifles but, even then, there will always be some amongst the 130,000 members who disagree on specific policies. That is inevitable - and, indeed, welcome as it keeps everyone aware that there are different points of view.

 

It is one of the reasons why I do not support the call that is trumpeted from time to time, suggesting that all shooting interests should be covered by one organisation or, indeed, that all field sports would be covered by a single organisation.

 

I reckon that trying to truly and fairly represent all live quarry sporting shooters is just about as wide as any organisation can comfortable encompass. cast the net any wider and you get into conflicts of interest that probably are irreconcilable - and rightly so. The classic example was the question of rearing pheasants in tiny raised cages. BASC and every game shooter I know was firmly of the view that such practices conflicted with their sporting ethics. But a very few of the very large game farmers took the opposite view. A clear conflict of interest where no single organisation could possible represent both sides.

 

Similarly, there will always be potential conflicts of interest between sporting agents, seeking to hoover up all the shooting for commercial purposes, and the ordinary shooter wanting to follow a traditional countryside pursuit. It would be wrong if BASC tried to represent the commercial boys. Even in the gun trade, the interests of the supplier are not always the same as the interests of the consumer. So it is right that there is a specialist Gun Trade Association. Then there is the divide between live quarry shooters and inanimate target shooters. On some issues the interests of both groups will coincide but, on other issues there may be differences. So it is far better that the target shooters have their own organisations to properly represent their interests.

 

As a wildfowler there have been times when I worried that when WAGBI changed to BASC, wildfowling interests would be submerged under the weight of game shooters, stalkers, vermin shooters, etc. On balance I think that the present set up is just about OK. But I would seriously worry if wildfowling became an even smaller minority interest within an even wider umbrella organisation.

 

I see the priority as getting an even larger proportion of recreational live quarry shooters into BASC rather than expanding the range of shooting interests that BASC represents.

[vulpicide]

I will point out that basc along with the ca and the ngo the sga the mfha and the shpa all endorsed the nwtf code of conduct as the acts to ban hunting with dogs were going through both parliaments . I bet the politicians love dealing with John Swift he still has'nt learned the only thing you know for SURE when you see a politicians lips moving is that their LIPS are moving.

[David BASC]

I fail to see the point you are trying to make, apart for simple sniping at BASC's Chief Executive!

 

You point out that all the organisations you list agreed the terrier code but you target the CEO of just one of them?

 

BASC is a shooting organisation so obviously our policies and strategy are aimed at keeping shooting and related activities safe.

 

This does not mean we work in isolation as some may like to suggest, as I said the CA who the NWTF say that work closely with, were fully aware and in full agreement of what BASC was lobbying for regarding terriers to protect game.

 

We lobbied for the use of terrier to protect game- that was exactly what, and only what our remit was, as I said it was up to the CA et al to lobby on the other aspects of terrier work

 

If there was a breakdown in communication between the CA and the NWTF or a failure in the lobbying on other aspects of terrier work don’t blame BASC!

 

Maybe it would be interesting to do a piece in S&C on terrier work?

 

David

[al4x]

From an outsiders point of view personally I'd find the use of terriers more controversial than hunting with hounds, the fact there was an allowance put in to let it continue was great work on everyones behalf. Ok it only specifies for the protection of gamebirds but really lets see a farm that doesn't have gamebirds on it. It has a place done well and I don't want to start a fight but there are a lot of fairly dubious characters involved in it and there is a big difference between being done properly and dogs fighting foxes underground. The way politics was going you were never going to be able to continue doing it as a "sport" so this gave it a certain amount of legal protection.

[MC]

Maybe Vulpicide would also like to tell us how much campaigning for shooting sports the NWTF does?

[David BASC]

I dont think they do anything to promote / protect shotoing, as this is not their remit. On their web it reads:

 

N.***. members are primarily engaged in the breeding and working of terriers for pest control and other related field sports activities. It is an indication of their and previous generations skill, dedication and concerns regarding the future well being of the breed, that the modern day working terrier displays none of the genetic and hereditary problems so commonplace in other breeds

 

I have no issue with that at all they are terrier men first and foremost and not shooters, they are in bed with the CA, again i have no issue with that at all, its them and the CA that should lead the political lobbying if they want any changes to the current legislation on the use of terriers - but if they do I hope that both contact BASC so we know what’s going on and get their re-assurance that anything they do will not prevent the current use of terrier to protect game.

 

Its important, in my view, for there to be specialist organisations such as this concentrating on specific aspects of fieldsports, but I don’t think there is any need for them to moan at BASC for keeping focus on shooting and Gamekeeping!

 

Never the less, terrier work is important to gamekeepers hence it may be useful for a review in S&C.

 

David

[MC]

I dont think they do anything to promote / protect shotoing, as this is not their remit. On their web it reads:

 

N.***. members are primarily engaged in the breeding and working of terriers for pest control and other related field sports activities. It is an indication of their and previous generations skill, dedication and concerns regarding the future well being of the breed, that the modern day working terrier displays none of the genetic and hereditary problems so commonplace in other breeds

 

I have no issue with that at all they are terrier men first and foremost and not shooters, they are in bed with the CA, again i have no issue with that at all, its them and the CA that should lead the political lobbying if they want any changes to the current legislation on the use of terriers - but if they do I hope that both contact BASC so we know what’s going on and get their re-assurance that anything they do will not prevent the current use of terrier to protect game.

 

Its important, in my view, for there to be specialist organisations such as this concentrating on specific aspects of fieldsports, but I don’t think there is any need for them to moan at BASC for keeping focus on shooting and Gamekeeping!

 

Never the less, terrier work is important to gamekeepers hence it may be useful for a review in S&C.

 

David

 

 

I am sure they don't do anything to protect shooting, yet one of their more vocal members is banging on about BASC and how it should be dropping everything and rushing to cause of the terriermen.

[David BASC]

I agree, but I hope he gets the message that BASC's main interest re terriers must be and must remain centred around Gamekeeping!

 

I will have a chat with the editor of S&C about a piece on terrier work as I think it could be interesting.

 

David

[al4x]

the piece on shooting with hounds was one of the better ones this time round

[David BASC]

Thanks,

 

i liked that one too!!

David