njc110381 Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 I've just been phoning around my local gunsmiths to get a price for screwcutting my .243. One company said it costs £50 to do the cut then £55 for proof and that I have to have the proof? Where does that idea come from? The gun isn't being transferred so as I'm the owner and I'm keeping it, I don't want one! I guess there's no way I can get around it but it's really annoying! I've had guns done before without a proof and by very reputable gunsmiths too! The rules can't vary so if it's ok for one it should be ok for all?! Anyone know of a reasonable dealer in Gloucestershire who will do it for similar money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 I've just been phoning around my local gunsmiths to get a price for screwcutting my .243. One company said it costs £50 to do the cut then £55 for proof and that I have to have the proof? Where does that idea come from? The gun isn't being transferred so as I'm the owner and I'm keeping it, I don't want one! I guess there's no way I can get around it but it's really annoying! I've had guns done before without a proof and by very reputable gunsmiths too! The rules can't vary so if it's ok for one it should be ok for all?! Anyone know of a reasonable dealer in Gloucestershire who will do it for similar money? UK custom shop in Droitwich is about £50 but cannot vouch for how good or bad they are as I've not used them. Some gunsmiths are OTT on H+S or perhaps just covering their backsides so insist on proof even if you never sell the gun. UK custom shop do not insist on proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted December 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 I've seen Andy's work in the past and it's reasonable. I'm just trying to avoid travelling so far to have it done. There are several good gunsmaiths up that way but if possible it would be nice just to drop in to one of the local places, have it done and leave without having to take the day off of work to do it. I've dropped them an e-mail with a bit of a moan so hopefully they'll do it for me. No harm in asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ade wills Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 had my cz screw cut by richard pope (swift silencers) or swift precission rifles no proofing think you only have to have it proofed when you sell bare in mind if you take it to shop they put their bit on top ,richard did it while you wait ,think it was about £60 ,only at bromsgrove so not that far from gloucester down m5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie g Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 (edited) i allways use richard pope now. good prices will do it well you wait if he hasnt much on. and you no the work is done by a well respected gunsmith who stands by his workmanship. you have steve bowers down your way who is one of the best i hear. trouble is he has a waiting list which is stupid long. god knows why it takes him that long to put rifle together ? so dont no if he would have time to do your screwcut. most rifles smith insist on proofing because of there insurance. but richard will do it with out proof. 60 for screwcut i think and 70 if you want it shortend and screwcut Edited December 14, 2010 by jamie g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 Just out of interest if you have a gun you own screcut it is then out of proof, so if you sell it you then have to send it for proofing before you can? How would anyone know it has been screw cut "out of proof?" or do you have to insist on the paperwork from the proof house before buying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie g Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 Just out of interest if you have a gun you own screcut it is then out of proof, so if you sell it you then have to send it for proofing before you can? How would anyone know it has been screw cut "out of proof?" or do you have to insist on the paperwork from the proof house before buying? i think there is a stamp from the proof house on the barrel ? when its proofed ? i could be wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 I've just been phoning around my local gunsmiths to get a price for screwcutting my .243. One company said it costs £50 to do the cut then £55 for proof and that I have to have the proof? Where does that idea come from? The gun isn't being transferred so as I'm the owner and I'm keeping it, I don't want one! I guess there's no way I can get around it but it's really annoying! I've had guns done before without a proof and by very reputable gunsmiths too! The rules can't vary so if it's ok for one it should be ok for all?! Anyone know of a reasonable dealer in Gloucestershire who will do it for similar money? Insurance is the answer. Look up Brock and Norris they will sort you out, they used to be local to you but they have moved to Telford now. But as you can post them the barrel location isn't an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie g Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 Insurance is the answer. Look up Brock and Norris they will sort you out, they used to be local to you but they have moved to Telford now. But as you can post them the barrel location isn't an issue. by the time he paid rfd fess it would cost him 40 to 50 pound ontop of screwcutting price though surely ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william1 Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 yes it is 72pound's + V A T i rang him the other day cheer's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted December 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 Insurance is the answer. Look up Brock and Norris they will sort you out, they used to be local to you but they have moved to Telford now. But as you can post them the barrel location isn't an issue. Any idea how one would go about getting a rifle barrel off without special tools? I've used Mike in the past and he's extremely good but it's all too much bother to get it to him! It's one hell of a drive to his farm! I think Richard Pope will be getting the work. He's the closest to me and does it for a fair price. HPS are sticking to their guns and saying they would be breaking the law to do it without proof and that I should ring the proof house for clarification if I'm not happy! Well I can't be bothered with that and feel that if the likes of Mike Norris, Steve Bowers, Richard Pope or Andy Banner (All amateurs it seems?!) are happy to do the work without proof then HPS are just being petty! I don't know, it would probably be easier to take it to HPS still but I'm really annoyed about this. The law is the law, how can it be so unclear between dealers that are so local to eachother?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 by the time he paid rfd fess it would cost him 40 to 50 pound ontop of screwcutting price though surely ? There are no RFD costs. As we are awash with armchair legal eagles, and we don't need another 10 pager on the subject, if NJC wants to PM me I can talk him through the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGBMAverick Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 Any idea how one would go about getting a rifle barrel off without special tools? I've used Mike in the past and he's extremely good but it's all too much bother to get it to him! It's one hell of a drive to his farm! I think Richard Pope will be getting the work. He's the closest to me and does it for a fair price. HPS are sticking to their guns and saying they would be breaking the law to do it without proof and that I should ring the proof house for clarification if I'm not happy! Well I can't be bothered with that and feel that if the likes of Mike Norris, Steve Bowers, Richard Pope or Andy Banner (All amateurs it seems?!) are happy to do the work without proof then HPS are just being petty! I don't know, it would probably be easier to take it to HPS still but I'm really annoyed about this. The law is the law, how can it be so unclear between dealers that are so local to eachother?! HPS are correct based on the Proof House memoranda "02-11-2001 Conversion of Barrels and the Fitting of Muzzle Accessories" in the attached link: http://www.gunproof.com/Proof_Memoranda/proof_memoranda.html Though I do not know the legal status of this "advice" by virtue of its existance, I would say the existing Proof marks on the rifle would be invalid as soon as the conversion to attach a moderator was performed on the barrel. Therefore there would be some doubt as to whether the rifle could be legally sold on afterwards. See section below from same website regarding Proof Acts: "The Proof Acts The provisions of the Acts apply to all small arms, whether of present use or future invention, within certain fixed limits of bore size and projectile weight (with the exception of some military arms made for the use of H.M. Forces). Air guns, are exempt from proof by Proof Act. The Proof Acts lay down that no small arm may be sold, exchanged or exported, exposed or kept for sale or exchange or pawned unless and until it has been fully proved and duly marked. The Maximum penalty is £5000 for each offence, but with provision for higher penalties where, for instance, the sale of a number of guns constitutes one offence. Alteration to or the forging of proof marks is a more serious offence. Arms previously proved and bearing apparently valid proof marks are deemed unproved if the barrels have been enlarged in the bore beyond certain defined limits or if the barrel or action has been materially weakend in other respects. The offence in dealing in unproved arms is committed by the seller, not by an unwitting purchaser." Such is the world we live................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted December 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 HPS are correct based on the Proof House memoranda "02-11-2001 Conversion of Barrels and the Fitting of Muzzle Accessories" The Proof Acts lay down that no small arm may be sold, exchanged or exported, exposed or kept for sale or exchange or pawned unless and until it has been fully proved and duly marked Exactly, but it's not being transferred is it? It's on my FAC, they will take charge of it to screw cut it then give it back. That's not an exchange/sale as there has been no notifiable transfer. They've just worked on it. If I was to sell it I would need to proof it, but that's not something I need to worry about or pay for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 Once again I have to admit I have not read all the responses so apologies if....... Many RFD still do not know/accept the law and many of those that do have their hands tied by their own business insurers. Having the gun re proofed is still VERY debatable legally, even if you want to sell it, I bought AND sold a cut/threaded and re crowned .22WMR with NO PROOF, from and to a RFD (2 different ones), and my new WMR was cut for me by the RFD and NOT proofed before he sold it to me! Go Figure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted December 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2010 The thing I don't understand is if a rifle is proofed with a screwcut from new it is not stamped at the muzzle? If you have it cut after the proof house seem to stamp next to the thread? So - if you get a rifle screwcut yourself how do they prove it wasn't like it when you bought it? It's all a bit silly, like most gun laws I suppose?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted December 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2010 (edited) Well that's HPS Target Rifles out of favour. After talking to them more on the matter they are extremely rude and I wouldn't go to them if they were the only dealer in the county! I've never sent an e-mail before and been answered with "we're not wasting any more time with this, do you want the work done or not?". Considering it was a reply to my e-mail thanking them for their time and stating that I would be contacting them in the new year to arrange for the work to be done (as they requested) I'm more than a little bit miffed! Edited December 15, 2010 by njc110381 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted December 15, 2010 Report Share Posted December 15, 2010 2 days fannying about on here, you could have had it done and on it's way back to you by now :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cumbrian Posted December 15, 2010 Report Share Posted December 15, 2010 Jackson Rifles website has a useful section on the lack of need for proofing after screw cutting, incl. counsel's opinion. On the whole I'm with Jackson Rifles, for what my amateur opinion is worth. This is especially so because there would appear to be a subtle alteration by the commercially motivated proof house(s) of the Proof Act's 'unduly' weakened to 'materially' weakened in their warning hand out (if I am quoting correctly in both cases - I'm sure someone will point out any error on my part.) Any removal of metal must of course 'materially' weaken a barrel, but need not necessarily 'unduly' weaken it, I would argue. There fact that there has been no successful test case suggests that the proof houses and firearms authorities have no evidence for an act of 'unduly' weakening a barrel or no interest in prosecuting for the same, if it has ever occurred. And, as others point out, how can you tell, in the absence of a proof mark, whether the screw-cut was not done in the factory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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