Ackley Posted May 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 laser range finders weren't an option 20yrs ago! if they were they were probably seriously expensive. Oh so your talking about the olden days,when it was accepable for a rifle to shoots a 4 inch group as no one knew that is was possable to shoot past 100 yards I take it you still havnt come into the 20th centuary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 I think it is a basic article but a realistic article and gives the reader the option of using the technic if he or she wishes. As has been quite rightly stated here it is the firer who makes the choice as to how he/she zero's their rifle, if they are happy with which ever method they choose and the final outcome then so be it. I do use the set high method and have done all my life both with my civilian rifles and all the way through my Army career. I find it very effective but at the same time do not state that it is or is not the best way to zero, we all have the ability to choose which method we prefer to use. I am a bit disappointed that certain forum members are allowing disagreements from previous threads to filter over to new ones. Sadly it is the usual suspects who are spoiling the pleasure for the other users. I know that debate is good and it helps to put each person’s opinion over so that the other members have the option to agree or disagree, use or not use the ideas for their own benefit. Unfortunately it is becoming a habit for these usual suspects to try and hijack each other’s or other users threads to engage in keyboard battle in an attempt to bring there opposites in previous conflict down to the low slagging match that has occurred in past threads. Please guys stop being so childish and agree to disagree because it is beginning to lower the standard of a quality Forum. Slangevar, Jimmy Well said, Jimmy. Sadly, it isn't, but it should be perfectly obvious that as there's more than one shooter, make of gun, calibre of gun, weight of bullet/shot, etc, etc, that there will inevitably be numerous ways that the same object is achieved. Ramming one's opinion down someone else's throat and throwing a wobbly when it's not well received is not usually condusive to a happy relationship. I mean, look at cars - do we all drive a black Model T Ford. Of course not. Mind you, what sort of stupid cretin with the mentality of a chipped garden gnome would want to drive a Mitsubishi L200!? :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 The most important part of rifle shooting is having a proper zero and then having consistent ammo through an accurate barrel piloted by a well trained pilot . I have been doing this for a lot longer than most on this forum and have read all the ballistics **** that keep being spouted on here and wonder to my self if some of these shooters actually go out and shoot deer . At sporting ranges 100 to 200 yards you could shoot deer with with old rusty bolts if you could get them to be consistantly accurate . All the years I have shot deer I have allways zeroed my rifles to shoot 2 inches high at 100 yards this allows me to shoot point of aim between 50 and 200 yards and hit the killing area on all deer . It really is quite simple . Harnser . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 The most important part of rifle shooting is having a proper zero and then having consistent ammo through an accurate barrel piloted by a well trained pilot . I have been doing this for a lot longer than most on this forum and have read all the ballistics **** that keep being spouted on here and wonder to my self if some of these shooters actually go out and shoot deer . At sporting ranges 100 to 200 yards you could shoot deer with with old rusty bolts if you could get them to be consistantly accurate . All the years I have shot deer I have allways zeroed my rifles to shoot 2 inches high at 100 yards this allows me to shoot point of aim between 50 and 200 yards and hit the killing area on all deer . It really is quite simple . Harnser . I am too a hold hand when it comes to stalking,but i was blinded when i first started my the old school ,boys who didnt know any better,you know the usual advice all you need a is a 6x42 scope a 4 inch group is pefectly OK dont shoot past 150 yards dont need to clean your rifle it will loose accuracy factory ammo is all your need just zero 1 inch high at 100 yards now you either embrace modern ballistics and modern equipment or you ignore it and carry on with the above,either way what works for you. ballistics isnt bull its a science which is easy to understand and use to your advantage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 I am too a hold hand when it comes to stalking,but i was blinded when i first started my the old school ,boys who didnt know any better,you know the usual advice all you need a is a 6x42 scope a 4 inch group is pefectly OK dont shoot past 150 yards dont need to clean your rifle it will loose accuracy factory ammo is all your need just zero 1 inch high at 100 yards now you either embrace modern ballistics and modern equipment or you ignore it and carry on with the above,either way what works for you. ballistics isnt bull its a science which is easy to understand and use to your advantage I all so understand ballistics and have had to when in my younger days was an avid long range rifle shooter . The understanding of ballistis is more relevant to long range shooting when you are looking to find the v-bull at 1000 yards than it is to zeroing a sporting rifle to shoot up to say 300 yards . All this talk of ballistics can be very confusing to a novice stalker when all he needs to do is to zero his rifle for stalking . I stick by what I have said and will say it again ,you dont need to be a ballistics expert to zero a sporting rifle for sporting ranges . Harnser . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 I all so understand ballistics and have had to when in my younger days was an avid long range rifle shooter . The understanding of ballistis is more relevant to long range shooting when you are looking to find the v-bull at 1000 yards than it is to zeroing a sporting rifle to shoot up to say 300 yards . All this talk of ballistics can be very confusing to a novice stalker when all he needs to do is to zero his rifle for stalking . I stick by what I have said and will say it again ,you dont need to be a ballistics expert to zero a sporting rifle for sporting ranges .Harnser . thats begs the question "what is a sporting range" to me a sporting range is what you are confident to shoot at,being confident means using ballistics to even zero your rifle, its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 You don't NEED to understand ballistics to zero a rifle or to shoot deer at short (<200) range. However, you will do a better job if you do. If you understand the principles you can work to select a more accurate bullet, and an understanding of terminal ballistics means you will select one that is appropriate to your quarry. Again, it's not a necessity - hell, look at America, half of them only just about understand which end is which of a rifle - but I think everyone should at least cast an eye over the theory, as it's one of the few that really does translate into the real world. Easily proven by the fact that with my iPhone's ballistic calculator, knowing bullet, velocity and zero, it can and has put me cold-bore into the v-bull at 1000 yards. Clearly, the theory works! Obviously the differences are smaller at sporting ranges, but I am a firm believer that if I can place my bullet to within < 1 inch, not within a 4-inch circle, that I am a more humane predator, and that is surely a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 (edited) I all so understand ballistics and have had to when in my younger days was an avid long range rifle shooter . The understanding of ballistis is more relevant to long range shooting when you are looking to find the v-bull at 1000 yards than it is to zeroing a sporting rifle to shoot up to say 300 yards . All this talk of ballistics can be very confusing to a novice stalker when all he needs to do is to zero his rifle for stalking . I stick by what I have said and will say it again ,you dont need to be a ballistics expert to zero a sporting rifle for sporting ranges . Harnser . yep, i too have done a fair bit of long range shooting and think the more of it you do the more you do the more you realise the difference between that world and that of the stalking world- that is if you stalk a reasonable amount also. I personally seriously hope we do not become a nation of "deer shooters" rather than "deer stalkers". There is far more sport and exitement involved in getting in as close as you can than learning to shoot from the distance anyway imo. I would argue all day that 300 yds is a range you should be capable of taking to deal with a mishap or emergency but not as a primary first shot. With a stalking rifle zero set at 100yds your going to be a foot or more low at 300 and a 10mph full value wind is gonna move you sideways a similar amount " ball park generalisation" . So i should say that the 300yds mentioned is well into the long range "shooter of deer" territory. To move your zero up higher at 100 to compensate? well i think your realy going to start to struggle with being too high for a great many more normal shots. Ok so you have gone high with your zero and can still shoot within that 4" tunnel with your super hot stalking rifle, you still have to shoot very much sub moa from field stances perhaps slightly out of breath to achieve you goal as shooting within moa means a group approx 3". Then call that wind 5mph out or 50% on direction etc and your looking at half a foot further out say. ok but you have the wind sussed all you have to account for is that deer moving a step just as you release the sear. So is the point and shoot MPBR method up to 300yds best for primary first shot? IMO not by a long chalk. Is it better than a 100yds dead on zero? IMO perhaps about equal as there are so many other factors to consider other than drop Do you need to be a balistic expert to zero and shoot at sporting ranges? Nope but 300 aint a "sporting" range anyway Edited May 10, 2011 by kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) yep, i too have done a fair bit of long range shooting and think the more of it you do the more you do the more you realise the difference between that world and that of the stalking world- that is if you stalk a reasonable amount also. I personally seriously hope we do not become a nation of "deer shooters" rather than "deer stalkers". There is far more sport and exitement involved in getting in as close as you can than learning to shoot from the distance anyway imo. I would argue all day that 300 yds is a range you should be capable of taking to deal with a mishap or emergency but not as a primary first shot. With a stalking rifle zero set at 100yds your going to be a foot or more low at 300 and a 10mph full value wind is gonna move you sideways a similar amount " ball park generalisation" . So i should say that the 300yds mentioned is well into the long range "shooter of deer" territory. To move your zero up higher at 100 to compensate? well i think your realy going to start to struggle with being too high for a great many more normal shots. Ok so you have gone high with your zero and can still shoot within that 4" tunnel with your super hot stalking rifle, you still have to shoot very much sub moa from field stances perhaps slightly out of breath to achieve you goal as shooting within moa means a group approx 3". Then call that wind 5mph out or 50% on direction etc and your looking at half a foot further out say. ok but you have the wind sussed all you have to account for is that deer moving a step just as you release the sear. So is the point and shoot MPBR method up to 300yds best for primary first shot? IMO not by a long chalk. Is it better than a 100yds dead on zero? IMO perhaps about equal as there are so many other factors to consider other than drop Do you need to be a balistic expert to zero and shoot at sporting ranges? Nope but 300 aint a "sporting" range anyway no one said you had to be a ballistic expert to zero a rifle,but a little understanding does and will help instead of guessing,who are you to say what a sporting range is obvioulsy sub 300 yards is your limit thats fine but dont judge others by your own standards shooting der or stalking call it what you will as long as the end result is the same whats all this "out of breath and field position" rubbish,you dont take any shot if your not happy with the rest or your phyisical condition,be it 50 yards or 500 yards as that is plain stupid Edited May 11, 2011 by Ackley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 no one said you had to be a ballistic expert to zero a rifle,but a little understanding does and will help instead of guessing,who are you to say what a sporting range is obvioulsy sub 300 yards is your limit thats fine but dont judge others by your own standards shooting der or stalking call it what you will as long as the end result is the same whats all this "out of breath and field position" rubbish,you dont take any shot if your not happy with the rest or your phyisical condition,be it 50 yards or 500 yards as that is plain stupid Ah, that's that sorted! Have a son who is a "marksman sniper" and I spent 10 years as a senior range warden on a military range where we had all sorts of people visiting. Consequently, although by any stretch of the imagination not an "expert" myself, I have a fair idea of what level of accuracy it is possible to achieve. Given reasonable weather conditions and if you can do what you say you can, I reckon that you could be on a winner on Sunday. Good luck. However, to any novice deer stalker I would say, "ignore this man unless you want to be a target shooter and listen to the people that actually do it". Any experienced field shooter no matter what discipline is going to recognise and relate to the phrase, "field stance, perhaps slightly out of breath". Field stance is obvious,(sadly, the Forestry commission have yet to distribute benchrests throughout their woodland) and as a novice you've yet to learn that "slightly out of breath" is not always due to exertion but often the thrill of "the chase" and not to mention one's heartbeat, both of which have to be brought under control. As said, good luck on the range on Sunday but try to pay a little attention to the people in the field that may just know as much about their environment as you possibly do about yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 However, to any novice deer stalker I would say, "ignore this man unless you want to be a target shooter and listen to the people that actually do it". Any experienced field shooter no matter what discipline is going to recognise and relate to the phrase, "field stance, perhaps slightly out of breath". Field stance is obvious,(sadly, the Forestry commission have yet to distribute benchrests throughout their woodland) and as a novice you've yet to learn that "slightly out of breath" is not always due to exertion but often the thrill of "the chase" and not to mention one's heartbeat, both of which have to be brought under control. nice advice, I'm new to stalking and have had a few this year, so far none over 100 yards but have shot from the bipod, from a gatepost, from sticks and from a stalkers shoulder. To me thats more real world than theory can't see me wanting to take 300 yard shots and one things for sure taking them from some of the shooting positions I've had to use would be ludicrous. People just need to get out and do it more than talk about the extreme theory of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Ah, that's that sorted! Have a son who is a "marksman sniper" and I spent 10 years as a senior range warden on a military range where we had all sorts of people visiting. Consequently, although by any stretch of the imagination not an "expert" myself, I have a fair idea of what level of accuracy it is possible to achieve. Given reasonable weather conditions and if you can do what you say you can, I reckon that you could be on a winner on Sunday. Good luck. However, to any novice deer stalker I would say, "ignore this man unless you want to be a target shooter and listen to the people that actually do it". Any experienced field shooter no matter what discipline is going to recognise and relate to the phrase, "field stance, perhaps slightly out of breath". Field stance is obvious,(sadly, the Forestry commission have yet to distribute benchrests throughout their woodland) and as a novice you've yet to learn that "slightly out of breath" is not always due to exertion but often the thrill of "the chase" and not to mention one's heartbeat, both of which have to be brought under control. As said, good luck on the range on Sunday but try to pay a little attention to the people in the field that may just know as much about their environment as you possibly do about yours. how do novices as you put it learn?? do they stick to the old school methods that certain people keep ramming down there throats,No they start where we all started,then hopefully improove along the journey,now if people want to stop as they are thats fine there isnt a problem,but please dont run others down who wnat and can better themself as to the out of breath subject,yes it does happen,climbing a hill only to drop on to a beast 100 yards or less away,what does one do,take a shot and hope for the best or try to compose one self to make sure the bullet goes where you want it,now the same situation climing a hill to glass a deer 300 plus yards away,no cover to get closer in,you have all the time in the world to get your breath set up a good field firing point,be it a bipod rucksck or the lay of the ground,either way its a good solid rest,there is no reason the shot cannot be taken as long as ALL conditions are right and you know your rifles "ballistic" capabilities along with your own of course your set up,the wind is good,the rest is good,you have recovered from your climb,all thats left to do is squeeze one off,simple now on the other hand you have done the clim your heart is racing,your panting to get your breath you dont have a good rest and the beast may move at any time,what does one do then,shoot and hope if one shoots enough they will encounter all manner of situations to shoot from,being able to adapt is the key but as you say "ignore me" as I havnt a clue as Ive never shot and never traveled the world shooting either Edited May 11, 2011 by Ackley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docholiday Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Ah, that's that sorted! Have a son who is a "marksman sniper" and I spent 10 years as a senior range warden on a military range where we had all sorts of people visiting. Consequently, although by any stretch of the imagination not an "expert" myself, I have a fair idea of what level of accuracy it is possible to achieve. Given reasonable weather conditions and if you can do what you say you can, I reckon that you could be on a winner on Sunday. Good luck. However, to any novice deer stalker I would say, "ignore this man unless you want to be a target shooter and listen to the people that actually do it". Any experienced field shooter no matter what discipline is going to recognise and relate to the phrase, "field stance, perhaps slightly out of breath". Field stance is obvious,(sadly, the Forestry commission have yet to distribute benchrests throughout their woodland) and as a novice you've yet to learn that "slightly out of breath" is not always due to exertion but often the thrill of "the chase" and not to mention one's heartbeat, both of which have to be brought under control. As said, good luck on the range on Sunday but try to pay a little attention to the people in the field that may just know as much about their environment as you possibly do about yours. well said that man, there are a lot of people about who talk the talk though I suspect not so many walk the walk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 how do novices as you put it learn?? do they stick to the old school methods that certain people keep ramming down there throats,No they start where we all started,then hopefully improove along the journey,now if people want to stop as they are thats fine there isnt a problem,but please dont run others down who wnat and can better themself as to the out of breath subject,yes it does happen,climbing a hill only to drop on to a beast 100 yards or less away,what does one do,take a shot and hope for the best or try to compose one self to make sure the bullet goes where you want it,now the same situation climing a hill to glass a deer 300 plus yards away,no cover to get closer in,you have all the time in the world to get your breath set up a good field firing point,be it a bipod rucksck or the lay of the ground,either way its a good solid rest,there is no reason the shot cannot be taken as long as ALL conditions are right and you know your rifles "ballistic" capabilities along with your own of course your set up,the wind is good,the rest is good,you have recovered from your climb,all thats left to do is squeeze one off,simple now on the other hand you have done the clim your heart is racing,your panting to get your breath you dont have a good rest and the beast may move at any time,what does one do then,shoot and hope but as you say "ignore me" as I havnt a clue as Ive never shot and never traveled the world shooting either Sorry, chum, but if you rush your five rounds on Sunday as you did that response, you're going to lose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Sorry, chum, but if you rush your five rounds on Sunday as you did that response, you're going to lose! a nice positive reply with no relivence to the subject at all just a pethetic dig,please add something usefull next time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 well said that man, there are a lot of people about who talk the talk though I suspect not so many walk the walk theres a lot that "can do both" but I suspose there is some that cant,I have to admit knowing a few,but its a learning curve and like anything,you have to give it a go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 a nice positive reply with no relivence to the subject at all just a pethetic dig,please add something usefull next time OK, will do. You would get on much better if you actually read and inwardly digested what people actually write. FIN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rascal_2005 Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 where did you guys learn about ballistics ect? is it something you learn as you go along? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docholiday Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Plenty written in books and on internet, Ballistic tables etc easily available doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) where did you guys learn about ballistics ect? is it something you learn as you go along? theres is loads of info on the net,certain web sites with like minded people are also worth joining as these guys wont run you down,also talking to others who are interested in the subject and wio wish toimprooving there standards,but getting a board out further than 100 yards after you have zeroed your rifle is a good place to start. it is quite interesting when you get into it,but there is always something to learn either from the net or from someone you meet or talk to Edited May 11, 2011 by Ackley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 no one said you had to be a ballistic expert to zero a rifle,but a little understanding does and will help instead of guessing,who are you to say what a sporting range is obvioulsy sub 300 yards is your limit thats fine but dont judge others by your own standards shooting der or stalking call it what you will as long as the end result is the same whats all this "out of breath and field position" rubbish,you dont take any shot if your not happy with the rest or your phyisical condition,be it 50 yards or 500 yards as that is plain stupid now thats were we are always going to differ "stalking" is the art of closing the range "shooting" is the act of squeezing a trigger. Contrary to what you might think i have squeezed the trigger on a few distant living things but i just can't consider it "sport" and so i can't call it "Sporting". The word sporting infers both chance and fairness, seeing a deer walk out into a field at 300 yds ranging it and correcting the dope and making a killing shot isn't all that difficult from a good rested stance (especially with the modern equipment you are keen to extol the virtues of) - I fail to see were the "chance" is in that (unless you are unsure of you abilities to make that shot, which is hardly "fair" either). On the otherhand seeing a deer walk out into the same field and getting within a far shorter range by "stalking" in close, thats fair, thats a chance! Above all its incredibly exiting So although the end goal might well be a dead deer, the way it is achieved is very different, one is the kick of killing or the need for pest control and the other the thril of the sport. To this end my three most exiting stalks only one ended in a shot being taken, i will remeber them all - though i have already forgotten most of those i have mearly seen and shot dead. To answer your assumption yes 300yds is way over my sporting limit for "stalking" (not my ability to shoot), the day i do not have to bring myself under control in order to take that final telling shot is the day i have turned into a "deer shooter" and i shall no longer call myself a stalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) now thats were we are always going to differ "stalking" is the art of closing the range "shooting" is the act of squeezing a trigger. Contrary to what you might think i have squeezed the trigger on a few distant living things but i just can't consider it "sport" and so i can't call it "Sporting". The word sporting infers both chance and fairness, seeing a deer walk out into a field at 300 yds ranging it and correcting the dope and making a killing shot isn't all that difficult from a good rested stance (especially with the modern equipment you are keen to extol the virtues of) - I fail to see were the "chance" is in that (unless you are unsure of you abilities to make that shot, which is hardly "fair" either). On the otherhand seeing a deer walk out into the same field and getting within a far shorter range by "stalking" in close, thats fair, thats a chance! Above all its incredibly exiting So although the end goal might well be a dead deer, the way it is achieved is very different, one is the kick of killing or the need for pest control and the other the thril of the sport. To this end my three most exiting stalks only one ended in a shot being taken, i will remeber them all - though i have already forgotten most of those i have mearly seen and shot dead. To answer your assumption yes 300yds is way over my sporting limit for "stalking" (not my ability to shoot), the day i do not have to bring myself under control in order to take that final telling shot is the day i have turned into a "deer shooter" and i shall no longer call myself a stalker nice choice of words,you wouldnt be a polititon by any chance as you seem to be sat on the fence,anyway stalking,shooting call it what you will I will now call it "hunting" for future debates persoanlly I wouldnt call shooting "sporting" • SPORTING (adjective) The adjective SPORTING has 4 senses: 1. exhibiting or calling for sportsmanship or fair play 2. relating to or used in sports 3. involving risk or willingness to take a risk 4. preoccupied with the pursuit of pleasure and especially games of chance Edited May 11, 2011 by Ackley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 I'm thinking the dope factor mentioned is quite apt in this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 nice choice of words,you wouldnt be a polititon by any chance as you seem to be sat on the fence,anyway stalking,shooting call it what you will I will now call it "hunting" for future debates persoanlly I wouldnt call shooting "sporting" • SPORTING (adjective) The adjective SPORTING has 4 senses: 1. exhibiting or calling for sportsmanship or fair play 2. relating to or used in sports 3. involving risk or willingness to take a risk 4. preoccupied with the pursuit of pleasure and especially games of chance Thats because you aint a sportsman, sitting on the fence? never Can we get back on thread now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted May 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Thats because you aint a sportsman, sitting on the fence? never Can we get back on thread now? LOL quite right Iam a "hunter" please do get back on thread,you seem to have lost your way a little changing the subject Edited May 11, 2011 by Ackley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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