243 and Deer

[Mr_Logic]

Not that a huge amount more is needed, but Kent is right here. Recoil affects the bullet while still in the barrel , simple fact. That recoil must be managed for accurate shooting of the heavier calibres.

[wymberley]

 

 

Might i suggest this thread has been diverted enough, if you want to discuss it further PM me or start a thread

Nah, you're OK, we've done the 243 and Deer, we're now on the "Oops".

[Redgum]

Well believe what you wish, though you are incorrect. Nobody is saying hard kicking calibres can't shoot well only that recoil (sorry part of it) occurs with the bullet still in the barrel and yes it does have an effect on accuraccy and given two identical guns (impossible) shot from less suported stances the lighter calibre will alway shoot more reliably to POA. We can manage this but we cannot avoid it and should not ignoor it. Try weighing your palls .375 (the weight is there to help with those recoil forces) look up the build weights of the even bigger guns like 500 nitro express it starts to paint a picture. competitive shooters are governed by maximum weights and try to run close to them, why? because it helps with recoil management- hence ability to shoot well. Comparing two guns on accurracy is meaningless there are more factors at play than just recoil in comparing two rifles. Do you realise Fister (despite the stupid name choice) builds some of the most competitive f-class /tactical/PR rifles i used to line up with him prior to a couple of years ago among some of the best rifle shots in the country

 

Not to put you off your new .308, its a fine round and very capable but dont tell us as a calibre it has lower recoil forces than a .243 or that recoil only occurs after the bullet leaves the barrel coz it don't, don't say POI dont change under different hold coz it does. Amount of recoil per calibre charts are freely available on the net BTW

 

Might i suggest this thread has been diverted enough, if you want to discuss it further PM me or start a thread

 

Head and wall springs to mind, but then this is the PW forum eh.

Edited November 4, 2011 by Redgum

[Mr_Logic]

But redgum, you're just wrong, plain and simple. There is no science behind your theory.

[Redgum]

But redgum, you're just wrong, plain and simple. There is no science behind your theory.

Mr logic, now theres an apt name, if you read through my posts I'm not saying that there is no recoil until the bullet has left the barrel, but by the time you have noticable FELT recoil then the bullet is well beyond the barrel. In relation to the weight of the rifle,even a light rifle the bullet is small, it accelerates quickly away while the opposite energy is absorbed and transfered through the gun to you and your mass which is, unless you have just come out of the crematorium quite a bit more than the bullet and happens much more slowly than the bullets acceleration. The bullet doesnt just fly out of the gun when youve stopped moving does it. One other major factor about recoil, its not just the acceleration of the bullet but a mass of expanding hot gas that suddenly hits the atmosphere,now you and kent may find this very hard to believe but the gas actually is behind the bullet, shock horror :blink: Why do you think a moderator reduces recoil so much. A heavy trigger will make alot more differance than recoil unless of course you have a flinch. Many have been put off heavy recoilers like 375s and bigger because they have tried to control recoil and have ended up with a bleeding scope ring around their eye. This is what I have been taught and believe over the years and it works for me so for you few girlies who don't agree stick to your recoil reducers and light calibres, probably be able to get em in the same colour as your hand bags. My apologies for taking things away from the original thread. :yp: :yp:

[Blunderbuss]

Not taking sides here in what is an interesting debate. I am very much in the recoil begins as soon as the bullet moves camp. It has to, you cannae change the laws of physics captain. And as a result the gun moves significantly before the bullet leaves the barrel. As a consequence weight and design, hold etc WILL affect POI. Anyone who has been formally taught marksmanship principles or shot match rifle will know how much emphasis is placed on the hold and follow-through for the above reasons.

 

But I also think I understand the concept Redgum is trying to articulate which can be explained by momentum. Although any gun STARTS to recoil as soon as the bullet moves, it continues long after it has left. This because the gun is a heavy object (relative to the bullet)which has had energy imparted to it and is moving as a result. Because it has a relatively large mass this momentum takes some stopping. This is why IMHO that most of the FELT recoil occurs after the bullet (your shoulder finally dealing with that momentum) but enough of it occurs before bullet exit to cause problems if we don't allow for it. A magnum revolver is a good example here. I fired a .454 Casull one handed once. The shots were roughly on target at 25m but recoil momentum meant the muzzle was pointing at the sky after each shot and my hand hurt like *******!

 

So you're both right. Play nicely now

Edited November 5, 2011 by Blunderbuss

[njc110381]

I hate it when two people I talk to and respect start swinging their handbags! Come on guys, give it a break!

 

My take on it is that there is recoil as the bullet moves, there has to be. But you won't react to that recoil until the bullet has long gone. It's the following shots that suffer.

 

I find it on the range with my .338 Win Mag. Give it to a stranger who just shoots .223 or something similar and the first round will be damn near the bull if they can shoot. Note where the second and third go though - they're often pulled.

 

I guess the amount of recoil that moves the gun before you realise must play a part. Physics says it must. So if a change in hold directs that recoil slightly differently then the lesser recoiling gun should be more accurate.

 

I found my 6.5x55 recoilled less than my .243.....

[Redgum]

I hate it when two people I talk to and respect start swinging their handbags! Come on guys, give it a break!

 

My take on it is that there is recoil as the bullet moves, there has to be. But you won't react to that recoil until the bullet has long gone. It's the following shots that suffer.

 

I find it on the range with my .338 Win Mag. Give it to a stranger who just shoots .223 or something similar and the first round will be damn near the bull if they can shoot. Note where the second and third go though - they're often pulled.

 

I guess the amount of recoil that moves the gun before you realise must play a part. Physics says it must. So if a change in hold directs that recoil slightly differently then the lesser recoiling gun should be more accurate.

 

I found my 6.5x55 recoilled less than my .243.....

 

Well my handbag is back in the holster as I'm so obvioulsy wrong and my point does not seem to be getting across. When shooting .22lr or hmr there are so many things that effect point of impact that need to be control with no recoil to worry about. I have seen many shooters holding their head( without knowing it usually) back from the sight anticipating recoil, even with a 243 and the shot is pulled. Not that I own or shoot many really big recoilers I have been taught by a mate who has his own range to go with the gun as the bullet will be out of the barrel when using the very light side by side 375H&H.

I was out with my 308 first thing trying to locate a big hairy pig that has a taste for pheasant food ( and usually bits of their feeders ). Well he wasnt showing but a buck munty pop out around 90yds away, I think the 180gr sp was legal calibre who ever measures the dia of the gun and luckily I hit it smack in the heart without compensating for recoil

Edited November 5, 2011 by Redgum

[Mr_Logic]

But Redgum, you don't compensate for recoil. You simply make sure your posture and rifle hold is the same shot-after-shot. The recoil of the rifle will be the same, so that means the whole overall process is the same. You simply shoot the rifle well, and zero it - that does all the recoil correction for you!

 

Reason for that - the rifle recoiling while the bullet travels up the barrel....

[kent]

But Redgum, you don't compensate for recoil. You simply make sure your posture and rifle hold is the same shot-after-shot. The recoil of the rifle will be the same, so that means the whole overall process is the same. You simply shoot the rifle well, and zero it - that does all the recoil correction for you!

 

Reason for that - the rifle recoiling while the bullet travels up the barrel....

 

Actually i do compensate for it from differering holds, Remember 1 MOA is only 1/60th of a degree movement at the shooters end of things. It very important for a Hunter who wishes to take presision shots to know how different holds effect the POI. For myself standing off sticks is around 1/2 moa, off hand 1moa using a sling wrap and near double that totally free handing (though i dont do this much unless the range is short) Modified kneeling is like sticks and prone off bipod 1/4 moa higher than padded suport. For perfect zero i go prone off bipod with rear bag which is my favoured way if needing to shoot long range.

[Redgum]

Well I did offer to put my handbag back into the holster but it seems some just want to rattle on for the sake of it, I offered the opinion that I was wrong ( though I think its just that I'm not getting my idea across and look at how many hits this post has got so it can only be good for the advertisers.)

Mr Bojic, can't you read the queens english( well maybe not quite queens english ).My opinion is that by the time most of the FELT recoil occurs the bullet is out of the barrel, the barrel being the long thing at the end of your rifles chamber ( you best check that one ).If posture and hold are the same everytime,why do we zero off bags, to limit all the these factors maybe, does the process of zeroing take into this movement of the gun as recoil occurs.

With a name like yours mate it conjours up the thought of electronic wizardry and computer thingy's and obviously, just like my ageing emachine, you need the info punchin in more than once .

 

Ps Kent I didnt see your post until this was written

Edited November 5, 2011 by Redgum

[Redgum]

Actually i do compensate for it from differering holds, Remember 1 MOA is only 1/60th of a degree movement at the shooters end of things. It very important for a Hunter who wishes to take presision shots to know how different holds effect the POI. For myself standing off sticks is around 1/2 moa, off hand 1moa using a sling wrap and near double that totally free handing (though i dont do this much unless the range is short) Modified kneeling is like sticks and prone off bipod 1/4 moa higher than padded suport. For perfect zero i go prone off bipod with rear bag which is my favoured way if needing to shoot long range.

Now is the reason for this allowance recoil or the fact of (well you've said it yourself) your a doddery old tart, joking, fun to watch some experienced stalkers shoot standing, with sticks as well, at a 40yd target on their DSC1.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Redgum

[kent]

At 40yds i wouldnt generally bother with sticks, its worth knowing your own zero changes with changing holds but on many shots it aint gonna amount to a hill of beans. Its funny when you go to these 100yds Sunday club ranges, all those expert stalkers and foxers and hardly a single person dare practice off hand, kneelers etc and i bet even fewer monitor the changes. There are little tricks that can improve your personal ability to hold nearer true zero from different stances, though you have to get out and experiment to find them

[Mr_Logic]

Redgum, don't appreciate personal insults; go **** yourself.

[Redgum]

Now who can't take a joke, remember, you have to compensate for this PW recoil

 

Go and lets some rockets off and cheer up.

[Tam]

Can't say recoil has ever bothered me with my 243 it is a heavy biach though Wouldn't think twice about using it on any UK Deer species

[highseas]

this is 7 pages of testosterone fule`d rubbish

 

however i will throw a spanner in the workd and say the 243 is **** its now for sale i want some thing better! ive just shot 3 deer this eve all perfect heart shots all ran over 100m in very very thick woods and took hours to find :o

[Redgum]

this is 7 pages of testosterone fule`d rubbish

 

however i will throw a spanner in the workd and say the 243 is **** its now for sale i want some thing better! ive just shot 3 deer this eve all perfect heart shots all ran over 100m in very very thick woods and took hours to find :o

 

My apologies for my part of the testosterone fueled rubbish highseas, was born with a right cracking set of jewels Quessing the deer were fallow bucks or bigger, bet they were all dead when you found them though. A 100yds is a lot of finding in any woodland to say the least, times 3 very hard work.Do use a mutt, was there a good blood trail. Havent shot many yet with the 308 but the couple of bucks I have just dropped to their knees, shot a munty buck this morning with it, great heart shot but slight angle and he was crammed full of beech mast and acorns so a little bit messy, exit less than 243 though, he didnt do a step, maybe flew a few though.

I did load a few 243 100gr roundnoses for the 243 but apart from a few munties never got to shoot fallow with them, always seemed to drop back on my'safe as houses' 100gr sierra's, would be interesting to see what they do, maybe next time though the 308 is so sweet I think it will be the gun of choice for everything. One more great thing with the 308 is the report( kent and logics ears ***** up :o :o ),though slightly louder(moderated)it is more rounded if that makes sense and sounds more like a 12gauge than a crack, most round here are used to shotguns but get nervous when hearing rifle cracks.

[Mr_Logic]

I have a 308 and had a 243. Honestly, the roe drop just the same.

[highseas]

My apologies for my part of the testosterone fueled rubbish highseas, was born with a right cracking set of jewels Quessing the deer were fallow bucks or bigger, bet they were all dead when you found them though. A 100yds is a lot of finding in any woodland to say the least, times 3 very hard work.Do use a mutt, was there a good blood trail. Havent shot many yet with the 308 but the couple of bucks I have just dropped to their knees, shot a munty buck this morning with it, great heart shot but slight angle and he was crammed full of beech mast and acorns so a little bit messy, exit less than 243 though, he didnt do a step, maybe flew a few though.

I did load a few 243 100gr roundnoses for the 243 but apart from a few munties never got to shoot fallow with them, always seemed to drop back on my'safe as houses' 100gr sierra's, would be interesting to see what they do, maybe next time though the 308 is so sweet I think it will be the gun of choice for everything. One more great thing with the 308 is the report( kent and logics ears ***** up :o :o ),though slightly louder(moderated)it is more rounded if that makes sense and sounds more like a 12gauge than a crack, most round here are used to shotguns but get nervous when hearing rifle cracks.

nope roe bucks, with 100grn ppu`s one was quatering away the other two were perfect broadside yeh i use a dog but its not the best in the world.

the odd thing is my 223 drops them on the spot more than the 243 i think its because it dumps more energy into the target

[Mr_Logic]

Highseas, roe bucks aren't in season at the mo ...

[Redgum]

nope roe bucks, with 100grn ppu`s one was quatering away the other two were perfect broadside yeh i use a dog but its not the best in the world.

the odd thing is my 223 drops them on the spot more than the 243 i think its because it dumps more energy into the target

 

Think this is a matter of bullet choice,do you reload highseas or use made up ammo and yes your shooting out of season, unless of course they are doing untold damage and you have no other choice.

[highseas]

Think this is a matter of bullet choice,do you reload highseas or use made up ammo and yes your shooting out of season, unless of course they are doing untold damage and you have no other choice.

they were ppu 100 grainers, ive got some home loads to try,7ggrain v-max

yes we have tickets to shoot out of season and at night,

Edited November 5, 2011 by highseas

[Mr_Logic]

Perfectly logical that the 223 works better than 243 - use a more violently-expanding 6mm bullet and they'll drop on the spot.

[Redgum]

87 Vmax do well out of a 243, know one person on here that uses em for reds as well, personally I have found they do more carcass damage than 100 gr soft points but I suppose it doesnt matter on a well placed heart shot or maybe lower neck. I have some 110gr softpoints in 308 that I will be loading up for Roe does.