njc110381 Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 right can you and njc answer this question with a yes or no do we have to comply with what is writen on out FAC get your tickets out and read them carefully if it helps No need to read it. Yes we do have to comply with the conditions of our certificates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 (edited) I only have target on my FAC and I use A-Max 168 or 174 bullets or Nosler Custom Competition, both are "hollow point" but the A-Max has the polymer tip to protect the bullet while in the magazine and to aid aerodynamic stability. My FEO knows I shoot A-Max and has no problems with it at all. From what I was told by the Hornady rep in the US the A-Max has a thicker wall and smaller cavity and tip/insert, the V-Max has a thinner wall and larger cavity and polymer tip insert to ensure a more rapid expansion on impact. Edited December 27, 2011 by phaedra1106 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 (edited) I only have target on my FAC and I use A-Max 168 or 174 bullets or Nosler Custom Competition, both are "hollow point" but the A-Max has the polymer tip to protect the bullet while in the magazine and to aid aerodynamic stability. My FEO knows I shoot A-Max and has no problems with it at all. From what I was told by the Hornady rep in the US the A-Max has a thicker wall and smaller cavity and tip/insert, the V-Max has a thinner wall and larger cavity and polymer tip insert to ensure a more rapid expansion on impact. Hi mate welcome to the debate,before a show people are breaking the conditions on there FAC what does it say on yours about buying ammo,obvioulsy you cant aquite section 5 expanding ammo as you dont have any conditions to shoot deer or vermin Edited December 27, 2011 by Ackley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 Ackley, I really don't know what you are trying to allege, but you really have no argument here; you are wrong plain and simple, no conditions on my ticket are breached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 Ackley, I really don't know what you are trying to allege, but you really have no argument here; you are wrong plain and simple, no conditions on my ticket are breached. we will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 I'm happy to hear the guy out. If I'm doing wrong and he can show me that then fair play. I will even say I will be grateful to him for that. So Ackley, carry on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 (edited) I too am interested, i have been looking at bullet and cartridge combinations for a while now and would be interested to hear the final decision. Edited to say: While thinking about it, and reading the rest of these posts, I have to say that if you did use one of these bullets to shoot a deer and for whatever reason plod stopped you and had a word, if they found you were using A-Max they may make things very difficult for you. Expanding ammunition ins't that much more expensive, and a good soft point bullet will mushroom/expand nicely while not vapourising as some have said A-max will. I really cant see why A-Max bullets are seen as being better than some designed for the purpose. Edited December 27, 2011 by Beretta28g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 (edited) OK copied from my FAC, 2. Ammunition including expanding ammunition and expanding missiles i Maximum quantity authorised to be possessed at any one time Calibre .308 - Quantity 500 ii Maximum quantity authorised to be purchased or acquired at any one time Calibre .308 - Quantity 400 I have left out the other calibres but that's all they say, no reference to type of ammunition only quantities. Reading that it looks like I would be able to hold expanding ammunition/missiles as it doesn't say I can't anywhere?. Edited December 27, 2011 by phaedra1106 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 OK guys we all agree we have to comply with what is printed on out FAC so tell me why it clearly state the holder of this certificate may possess,purchase or a aquire expanding ammuntion or the missiles of such ammunition,authorised by this certificate and may use such ammunition “ONLY” in the connection with the lawful shooting of deer,the shooting of vermin or in the course of carrying out activities in conection with the managment of any estate,other wildlife,the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans this is printed cystal clear we can only use expanding ammo for the above,so guys please show me on your FAC where its says you can use any other bullet to shoot deer vermin or and animal with match ammo,it clearly states “ONLY in the conection” so you are in breach of the conditions of your FAC if you are using any other bullet than what is allowed on your ticket,just like if you didnt have vermin condition on your deer rifle,or fox on your HMR if you are using any other ammo other than what is conditioned on your FAC to shoot deer or vermin you are breaking the law as if it isnt on your ticket you cannot do it so its illegal,as I have always said if we wasnt ment to use expanding ammo we wouldnt be given the condition,you can only do and use whats on your FAC conditions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 OK copied from my FAC, 2. Ammunition including expanding ammunition and expanding missiles i Maximum quantity authorised to be possessed at any one time Calibre .308 - Quantity 500 ii Maximum quantity authorised to be purchased or acquired at any one time Calibre .308 - Quantity 400 I have left out the other calibres but that's all they say, no reference to type of ammunition only quantities. Reading that it looks like I would be able to hold expanding ammunition/missiles as it doesn't say I can't anywhere?. certainly looks thats way mate I find it amazing that your allowed to buy and hold expanding ammo without having the conditions to use them,I would like to think its a mistake by your office,it does happen like the time I was granted a semi auto 243 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 (edited) Looking at the additional condition I can only shoot them at targets Additional conditions may be added here by the chief officer of police. 5. The firearm and ammunition shall be used for target shooting, whilst a member of the Mayfair Shooting Centre, and only on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim. Edited December 27, 2011 by phaedra1106 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 Looking at the additional condition I can shoot them at targets Additional conditions may be added here by the chief officer of police. 5. The firearm and ammunition shall be used for target shooting, whilst a member of the Mayfair Shooting Centre, and only on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injusy or damage claim. you cant shoot expanding in a comp you can only shoot them for zeroing,I cant shoot target comp as I havnt got the condition on my FAC but I can zero uisng expanding,I would check with your FEO mate as i have never heard of anyone with only a target condition to be allowed to buy and hold expanding ammo,as you can buy them and use them to zero but not in a comp,strange isnt it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 If you shoot a deer with an A-max you will be contravening the deer act. After the recent A-max section 5 expanding debarcle the home office ruled that A-max "IS NOT" a section 5 expanding projectile. Therefore it will be illegal to shoot deer with this bullet, PERIOD!!! Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 Indeed No intention of buying any though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 If you shoot a deer with an A-max you will be contravening the deer act. After the recent A-max section 5 expanding debarcle the home office ruled that A-max "IS NOT" a section 5 expanding projectile. Therefore it will be illegal to shoot deer with this bullet, PERIOD!!! Ian. thank you at last someone who knows what is correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted December 28, 2011 Report Share Posted December 28, 2011 Ackley, yes that is correct mate and there is no two ways about it, anyone who says otherwise obviously has no regard for the law. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted December 28, 2011 Report Share Posted December 28, 2011 Police forensics don't do much on shot deer round my way . Answer to the original thread, heaviest bullet your rifle will shoot accurately, soft point will do less meat damage. As for shot placement, heart/lung shots are most common and preferred by most due to less likely to wound animal but if you think you can do it and have a good platform (highseat) neck shots will spark em out instantly. The last few pages of ranting in true PW tradition have been enjoyable, pity we are not all in the pub Its one of those topics, just like muzzle energy,bullet weight, barrel length etc for legally shooting deer. I know afew foxing boys who use Amax as its easy to get through the post, and from what I have read here it does expand, but regardless, for deer of all sizes if your shooting boiler room you won't beat a good softpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted December 28, 2011 Report Share Posted December 28, 2011 Looking at the additional condition I can only shoot them at targets Additional conditions may be added here by the chief officer of police. 5. The firearm and ammunition shall be used for target shooting, whilst a member of the Mayfair Shooting Centre, and only on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim. You cannot purchase expanding ammunition. That is standard wording on a Co Durham FAC. Your additional conditions dictate what you may or may not purchase. you cant shoot expanding in a comp you can only shoot them for zeroing,I cant shoot target comp as I havnt got the condition on my FAC but I can zero uisng expanding,I would check with your FEO mate as i have never heard of anyone with only a target condition to be allowed to buy and hold expanding ammo,as you can buy them and use them to zero but not in a comp,strange isnt it Actual wording on my FAC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted December 28, 2011 Report Share Posted December 28, 2011 Redgum, A-max is fine for fox, vermin and ground game as are any other non expanding match bullets simply because we are not governed by any acts telling us what bullets to use on these quarry species. As we know the deer act "DOES" specify what type of bullet we can shoot deer with and due to recent rulling it has been made blatently clear that the A-max is not one of them, simples!! Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted December 28, 2011 Report Share Posted December 28, 2011 Can you give us a link to this ruling? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted December 28, 2011 Report Share Posted December 28, 2011 Ackley, yes that is correct mate and there is no two ways about it, anyone who says otherwise obviously has no regard for the law. Ian. Ian, I've met you and I respect you and what you have to say. However, in this case what you say is incorrect. The A-Max is definitely a match bullet; this has been clarified and I am in complete agreement with this statement, and always have been. However, the Deer Act DOES NOT state that a section-5 match bullet must be used on deer; this is because the Deer Act was written before the expanding bullet was made a section 5 item. I agree that it would be better worded if the two Acts were aligned and a subsequent Amendment for the Deer Act was issued. However, this is not the case. The wording of the law, as it currently stands, uses the words "5. Any bullet for use in a rifle other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet." This makes no mention whatsoever of the bullet's intended purpose. This is the only piece of legislation governing the choice of bullet for use on deer. Please refer me to any piece of LEGISLATION which states that the bullet in use must be a section-5 classified expanding round. I agree that sensible bullet choice steers you toward such bullets; I agree that by and large they are a better choice. However, in terms of the letter of the law, as demonstrated by the above evidence, they are NOT required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted December 28, 2011 Report Share Posted December 28, 2011 OK guys we all agree we have to comply with what is printed on out FAC so tell me why it clearly state the holder of this certificate may possess,purchase or a aquire expanding ammuntion or the missiles of such ammunition,authorised by this certificate and may use such ammunition “ONLY” in the connection with the lawful shooting of deer,the shooting of vermin or in the course of carrying out activities in conection with the managment of any estate,other wildlife,the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans Ackley, you are clearly illiterate, please go and learn how to read. This sentence means that you may ONLY use this particular type of ammunition in connection with the activities to which the sentence refers - deer shooting, vermin shooting and the other bits. It does NOT mean that you may ONLY use this type of ammunition for such activities. If you require clarification of this wording, please see a primary school teacher, they will be able to shed some light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted December 28, 2011 Report Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) Ian, I've met you and I respect you and what you have to say. However, in this case what you say is incorrect. The A-Max is definitely a match bullet; this has been clarified and I am in complete agreement with this statement, and always have been. However, the Deer Act DOES NOT state that a section-5 match bullet must be used on deer; this is because the Deer Act was written before the expanding bullet was made a section 5 item. I agree that it would be better worded if the two Acts were aligned and a subsequent Amendment for the Deer Act was issued. However, this is not the case. The wording of the law, as it currently stands, uses the words "5. Any bullet for use in a rifle other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet." This makes no mention whatsoever of the bullet's intended purpose. This is the only piece of legislation governing the choice of bullet for use on deer. Please refer me to any piece of LEGISLATION which states that the bullet in use must be a section-5 classified expanding round. I agree that sensible bullet choice steers you toward such bullets; I agree that by and large they are a better choice. However, in terms of the letter of the law, as demonstrated by the above evidence, they are NOT required. Hey up buddy hows it going mate? Your observations are correct mate and i cannot dissagree when you look at the exact wording of the act but we all have our own interpretations of various regulations and like you say there are far more suitable bullets for use on deer then the A-max, the world would be a very boring place if we all agreed on everything had the same view point. Ian. Edited December 28, 2011 by Vermincinerator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted December 28, 2011 Report Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) Luckyshot - I have no intention of purchasing expanding ammunition as I have no use for it and could not legally shoot any live quarry. BUT, neither your certificate or mine say you can or cannot purchase expanding ammunition anywhere on them, only the maximum quantities for holding/acquiring "Ammunition including expanding ammunition and expanding missiles" for each calibre. Again (unless there's something I can't see in no.5 on yours) neither yours nor mine make any reference to the ability to be able to purchase or not purchase expanding ammunition in the additional conditions. It may just be that Durham have worded it badly and should have specifically said expanding could/could not be held/acquired, maybe other forces word their certificates differently?. Edited December 28, 2011 by phaedra1106 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted December 28, 2011 Report Share Posted December 28, 2011 Ackley, you are clearly illiterate, please go and learn how to read. This sentence means that you may ONLY use this particular type of ammunition in connection with the activities to which the sentence refers - deer shooting, vermin shooting and the other bits. It does NOT mean that you may ONLY use this type of ammunition for such activities. If you require clarification of this wording, please see a primary school teacher, they will be able to shed some light. less of the insults please,this is a grown up debate,thank you but to answer yopur question,show me where on your FAC it clearly states what other ammo you are allowed to use for deer control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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