Sandbank Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) For all of you who have been through further education in the last decade or so ....... My profound respect and sympathy. It does not matter whether you were at a prestige location reading a prestige subject or ... well, doing something vocational. Fact remains the competition for places, the entry requirements and ultimate financial burdens are far worse than anything experienced in 'my day'. The only people who say 'exams are getting easier' are those who do not have to take them. I agree that not all the well educated have common sense. The former you are taught, the latter comes with time. But as a graduate and higher degree student of the 60's I realise how lucky I was and how tough it is now. Edited January 31, 2012 by Sandbank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Don't think there is anything wrong with not going to University, it's not for everyone and the one of the worst things that T Bliar and New labour did was try to let everybody go to University. All it did was encourage Universities to offer Micky Mouse degrees so they could get extra funding and meant that people got inot loads of debt and couldn't get a decent job at the end, it also devalued a University education. In my opinion they should have created more technical acadamies for people to learn skills and trades and encouraged people to go there instead of wasting a few years doing A-Levels which weren't going to do them any good. Absolutely true. This policy created a massive problem. By 'forcing' just every young person in the country to go to university, they simply lowered the standards of entry. What used to be a career choice for the bright and hopeful now became a mandatory requirement for the mediocre. The result was more and more of the bright people needing to go on to further study (Msc, PhD etc) simply because a university degree was no more a demarcation between the academic and the technical. A huge disappointment was the 'upgrade' of nursing from a vocational profession to an academic one. Nowadays young nurses think they are too good to change a bed pan or feed a patient, therefore we have the need for healthcare assistants in hospitals. The nurses now fancy themselves carrying the role of the doctor, diagnosing and dishing out prescriptions, something that enrages both doctors and the old school nurses (now made managers i.e 'modern matrons') and of course putting patients at risk. Edited January 31, 2012 by Psyxologos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR1960 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 A huge disappointment was the 'upgrade' of nursing from a vocational profession to an academic one. Nowadays young nurses think they are too good to change a bed pan or feed a patient, therefore we have the need for healthcare assistants in hospitals. The nurses now fancy themselves carrying the role of the doctor, diagnosing and dishing out prescriptions, something that enrages both doctors and the old school nurses (now made managers i.e 'modern matrons') and of course putting patients at risk. My ex was a Nursing Sister and agrees with you 100%. She attributes the rise in hospital infections directly to the 'degree' educated nurses thinking it was beneath them to clean a ward and the various pay rises attracting the 'wrong sort' of person to the profession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I started a degree in a subject (accountancy and finance) that I thought I could apply anywhere because I didn't know what I wanted to do and I was always told that: 1. an education is something you will have and you can't lose or have taken away from you; and, 2. you should go as far as you can or as far as you want to; and, 3. it's the difference between 45 years at work or 42 years with a few more doors open. It's really not that difficult. The question is, in an ideal world (with free higher education) would you rather your children went as far as they can or jacked in school at 16 and... The loss of free university education is a massive kick in the nuts for the country and the effect will be felt for years to come, but I do agree that there were just too many BS degree courses out there just for the sake of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds chimp Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I started a degree in a subject (accountancy and finance) that I thought I could apply anywhere because I didn't know what I wanted to do and I was always told that: 1. an education is something you will have and you can't lose or have taken away from you; and, 2. you should go as far as you can or as far as you want to; and, 3. it's the difference between 45 years at work or 42 years with a few more doors open. It's really not that difficult. The question is, in an ideal world (with free higher education) would you rather your children went as far as they can or jacked in school at 16 and... The loss of free university education is a massive kick in the nuts for the country and the effect will be felt for years to come, but I do agree that there were just too many BS degree courses out there just for the sake of it. I left college over 10 years ago and could have gone to uni with the grades I got...but speaking to younger brother of a mate last year I would not get a look in now with the same grades due to the fight for places Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 But there's one thing you can be sure of. If you go through life bitter and twisted with your cloth cap head stuck up your Socialist ****hole, you're knackered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferguson_tom Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Another one from the missus company that started this thread. We are having problems with her freelander so needed someone to jump start her. So she asked the office if someone could help her she explained she had the leads and knew what to do just needed the car. Stunned silence in the office and eventually someone popped up and said but we all have smaller cars than you so it will flatten our batteries. I am sorry but i can understand a few people not knowing things about cars but a whole office??? As for university best thing they ever did was put the cost up so it stops all the people who have no direction in life going and doing a rubbish degree with no relevance to real life what so ever. If you go to university with a drive and a passion for what you want to do and a clear goal then do it. People complaining about the costs is a load of rubbish, its all relevant to the job you do. If you earn 10k more a year than someone without the qualification you have paid the difference off in 3 years and then continue to earn more money. I am 22 have a load of friends who did the waste of time degree and now struggling to find jobs, i am in a lot better position than most of them as more employable and earn more money than them. Of course there are the people who went a did a degree because they wanted to do a specific job who are know on a lot more money than me and always will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksdad Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Don't forget its only us English mugs that have to pay for uni, so that other UK countries can go for free! Edited January 31, 2012 by jacksdad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferguson_tom Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) I think its right for people to pay for their own uni if your 18 you can quite easily go get a job and live on your own 2 feet, why should i subsidise someone to go into further education for a longer time just so they car earn more money than me in the long run? Sorry to be so blunt, had this conversation quite a few times with friends at uni lol. No hard feelings meant at all. Edited January 31, 2012 by ferguson_tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I think its right for people to pay for their own uni if your 18 you can quite easily go get a job and live on your own 2 feet, why should i subsidise someone to go into further education for a longer time just so they car earn more money than me in the long run? Sorry to be so blunt, had this conversation quite a few times with friends at uni lol. No hard feelings meant at all. Because the cost of an uneducated workforce is disproportionately greater than the cost of education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferguson_tom Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Because the cost of an uneducated workforce is disproportionately greater than the cost of education. True but if you go to uni you want to better yourself in a job which means you will be paid more money than a person without a degree so why shouldn't you pay for it. If i decide to go uni now with a view to getting a job where i get paid 10k more i would expect to pay for it. Edited January 31, 2012 by ferguson_tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr W Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Because higher education should be based on ability not ability to pay. We should be encouraging the brighest students to go to University to learn to become doctors, scientists etc not saddling them with shed loads of debts as well. I also believe that company bosses earn the large bonuses they get because only a very small percentage of people can do the job and they are in high demand, to get the best you have to pay for it. If you don't you'll just find that the best will go and work abroad where they can earn more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 As a former degree student B Sc Hon (Applied Science) Civil Engineering, there is good and bad in both arguments here. We need as many students as are capable to get worthwhile higher qualification in worthwhile subjects but not to subject youngsters for whom this is not the best option to 3/4 years of debt burdening pointless study. Worthless degrees abound and the value of a degree has fallen still further. We need to cut the numbers of 'degree' courses and exclude the least worthwhile (national benefit as well as personal benefit). We should pay for the best as they in return more in tax and opportunities for others into the economy, it makes sense to pump - prime the system. Education is an end in itself as, having the best academic institutions will attract foreign currency and as long as they return home - great. I also think that a 'working degree' the equivalent of high level apprenticeship (the old sandwich course) produced some very capable, talented people. Apprenticeships also develop talent that is not so good at exams but practically very able. Quite a few CEO's came through apprenticeships. Having options for everyone to advance when in a career allows the best to rise still further. It is rather sad that its English students that have to pay whilst everyone else goes free from britain. Its even worse that a person with an education(degree) loan is charged interest, especially after having been promised they would not incur other than loan repayment charges. The present sytem serves neither the student nor the country and we need an end to financial descrimination - why should the english pay for scotland or wals's student costs and not be able to advance the same benefit to its own residents? I am glad I got my degree in the 70's. It wasnt easy but the experience gave me a lot more than a degree. I doubt I would bother studying for a degree today as that is the first step rather than the last it used to be. (Excepting CPD) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferguson_tom Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Totally agree with the bonuses for large company directors, if you do a good job you get a decent bonus. As for the ability to pay that is already dealt with in the student loan, the government give you a loan which you dont have to pay back if you earn under so much a year. When you do start earning more its only a small percentage of your salary which is taken before tax (i think.) The salary which this loan is taken out of is the salary you earn because you went to university because you are doing a higher paid job. When you are applying for a mortgage or credit this student loan is not taken into account so it does not affect your credit rating. So there is nothing stopping anyone from going to uni, if you are from a less fortunate background you can get bursaries from the government to help with the day to day expenses which would be the same if tuition fees were free or 10k a year. The only thing i consider an exemption to the above is nurses as they need to go uni but earn rubbish money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I started a degree in a subject (accountancy and finance) Dear Mungler, You started on the correct path, so how was it that you were led so astray into the depths of the law? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Dear Mungler, You started on the correct path, so how was it that you were led so astray into the depths of the law? He realised that in law you don't have to sart you career with three years of audit as some sort of penance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR1960 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I also think that a 'working degree' the equivalent of high level apprenticeship (the old sandwich course) produced some very capable, talented people. Yes I agree, thanks! I don't know which particular area of civils you're in but our industry won't entertain anyone now without a degree as a starting point. This is all very well but they mostly have no practical knowledge and very little life experience. They then have a year doing the rounds of the various disciplines and go straight into management and get chartered without having ever got their hands 'dirty'. Personally I have serious issues with that. I spent years knocking hell out of 150 year old bridges and buildings (and still do on occassion!) and I think that makes for a real engineer, there's FAR too much emphasis nowadays on pieces of paper. Necessary perhaps, but without practical knowledge dangerously lacking in my opinion. I'd be interested in your thoughts?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Dear Mungler, You started on the correct path, so how was it that you were led so astray into the depths of the law? Law was one of the modules on the accountancy and finance course and it was the only module that interested me, so I transferred over to do law. I cannot begin to describe how utterly boring and soul destroying accountancy and finance was.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Law was one of the modules on the accountancy and finance course and it was the only module that interested me, so I transferred over to do law. I cannot begin to describe how utterly boring and soul destroying accountancy and finance was.... Try telling that to Harry Rednap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr W Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 He realised that in law you don't have to sart you career with three years of audit as some sort of penance Happy days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Yes I agree, thanks! I don't know which particular area of civils you're in but our industry won't entertain anyone now without a degree as a starting point. This is all very well but they mostly have no practical knowledge and very little life experience. They then have a year doing the rounds of the various disciplines and go straight into management and get chartered without having ever got their hands 'dirty'. Personally I have serious issues with that. I spent years knocking hell out of 150 year old bridges and buildings (and still do on occassion!) and I think that makes for a real engineer, there's FAR too much emphasis nowadays on pieces of paper. Necessary perhaps, but without practical knowledge dangerously lacking in my opinion. I'd be interested in your thoughts?? JR, I am retired now (early) but I learnt an awful lot of practical stuff from an older sandwich course degree student I worked on site with. There is no real substitute for practical knowledge. For example the theory side of structures is fine but how is concrete really mixed on site - cubes are taken but contractors occasionally added 'impurities' plums or large rocks, vibration was hardly up to snuff etc etc. Having been on site and done this stuff, seen the shortcuts and the 'adjustment' to designs is a fundamental requirement of a proper engineer. I still reckon that the best practical civil engineer I ever knew was a GF who had been in his job 30 years and had no formal qualifications. What he didnt know wasnt worth knowing and he could size steel without having to 'design' it. He picked up problems from engineers plans and changed them to work. Native intelligence is not passed across with a degree certificate, nor is dedication and nor is professionalism. Dont get me started on management. Those who want to manage should be prevented from doing so. Management to me is a collection of skills which are never touched by a degree course. The best way to achieve a good management style is to start at the bottom and learn to encourage people to a common aim or shared 'vision', recognising the needs and strengths of the individual. Business excellence without the people skills is pointless. I have yet to see a good business manager, civil engineer or other, who does not fundamentally understand almost everything that goes into a job. Engineers are best managed by engineers, not by planners or accountants or anyone else. Degrees are no substitute for experience, that said degrees can enhance technical management skills Just my opinion. 'Talking the talk' is nowhere near good enough and never should have been. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR1960 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Kes Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said, what really worries me is as us old farts shuffle off into retirement we leave behind a "hierarchy of idiots" as my mate calls it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Kes Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said, what really worries me is as us old farts shuffle off into retirement we leave behind a "hierarchy of idiots" as my mate calls it. I agree with the 'old farts' bit, I wouldnt mind betting you were a young turk once and really keen to do it right and quicker than anyone else. I have a feeling thats genetic and maybe we aren't breeding the right people to be engineers these days? I'll remember your mates phrase - sums it up really. Cheers, Kes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 He realised that in law you don't have to sart you career with three years of audit as some sort of penance Aah, but many of us move on to the interesting stuff .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WelshLamb Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 :lol: Thats the stock answer of people without qualifications. Ive got a BSc and a Post grad and I just pretend to be stupid.... Ditto. I'm a qualified chemist with a BSc Honours and MSc in Biochemistry. Worked hard at A-Levels and Uni, and put in the required training in the industry afterwards. I'm now a lorry driver (by choice) and due to that, most people think I'm stupid. I just let them think that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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