22-250 grouping question

[Stratts]

I took the 22-250 out last night for the 2nd time at 100 yards to zero and get used to before I go out hunting with it

 

Am quite surprised at the kick it produces compared to the WMR tbh. Tried some Prvi Partisan rounds and it definitely does not like those, which is **** law as they are the cheapest rounds available!! A couple of shots stayed within an inch of each other but the rest were all over the shop.

 

Then tried 3 shots with Rem Powershock which my friend uses with this rifle and got them all within 40mm of each other an inch high of center.

 

I know I need more practice to get used to the rifle but what do you guys consider acceptable groupings consistently to go out after fox and muntjac?

 

Cheers

Edited March 22, 2012 by Stratts

[Grandalf]

Thumbnail group at 100yds.

 

My 22/250 puts Hornady all over the paper.

It likes Remmington Ballistic Tipped but I don't - poor expansion.

Federal is usable - Inch and a half group.

We both like Winchester Silver Tips but for the price.

 

As one doesn't fire many rounds I use the Winchesters.

 

Got to find the one that suits your weapon.

 

Nothing wrong with your weapon handling if you grouped your mates ammo OK.

[Stratts]

Cheers mate here's the 3 shots (I know there's improvement needed!)

 

The elevation's good 1" high at 100 yds I think it's just my trigger control and breathing that needs work

 

Also how much does wind affect the 22-250 coz it was blowing right to left a bit last night bout 10mph ish

[12borejimbo]

If you are new to CF shooting, try not to flinch, the .22-250 is a very mild round compared to a few others, so if you think its a bit heavy, try using an unmoderated 308 or a 270. Get comfortable, try hard when aiming, control your breathing and trigger SQUEEZE and practice loads before you go out shooting foxes and munties! I would say you want to be putting all your bullets in 1" groups at 100 yards off a bipod on a still day. Any decent factory round should put 1" groups at 100 yards. just keep practicing and try different ammo.

[apache]

Inch high with that group at 100 yards, I'd say good enough for foxes. Seriously if you hit it with the 22-250 you're going to do enough damage to get another shot in before it goes anywhere. It's all well and good being able to get a cloverleaf at 100 yards but completely unnecessary for most hunting.

[gixer1]

Inch high with that group at 100 yards, I'd say good enough for foxes. Seriously if you hit it with the 22-250 you're going to do enough damage to get another shot in before it goes anywhere. It's all well and good being able to get a cloverleaf at 100 yards but completely unnecessary for most hunting.

 

+1

[The Essex Hunter]

Cheers mate here's the 3 shots (I know there's improvement needed!)

 

The elevation's good 1" high at 100 yds I think it's just my trigger control and breathing that needs work

 

Also how much does wind affect the 22-250 coz it was blowing right to left a bit last night bout 10mph ish

 

 

 

That will work fine if the fox is side or quarter on, go and whack a few.....Rome wasn’t built in a day…..

Let us know how your breathing was when Charlie was in the scope…

 

 

TEH

[njc110381]

I agree, that's plenty good enough to shoot a Fox sized target at sensible ranges. I prefer my groups to be a bit tighter but if you're noticing the recoil and finding it uncomfortable then you may well be pulling your shots. In fact as the vertical is spot on but the horizontal is a bit slack I'd say that's pretty likely.

 

Keep your Foxes under 200 yards and keep shooting paper. Chances are you'll improve.

[Ackley]

Inch high with that group at 100 yards, I'd say good enough for foxes. Seriously if you hit it with the 22-250 you're going to do enough damage to get another shot in before it goes anywhere. It's all well and good being able to get a cloverleaf at 100 yards but completely unnecessary for most hunting.

I would say you havent given the correct advice to a newbie C/F shooter,whilst Iam not going to say you need a clover leaf at 100 yards what you do need is consistant accuracy of some kind,and telling someone this group is OK at 1 inch high is totally irresponsable,as where is the bullet going to end up past 100 yards ???you or i cannot say,the only way to know is put it on paper.

so no this group isnt good enough to shoot anything live espeically not a munty,as they never stand still and miss hit they cabn quickly disapear into the under growth,even saying "you can get another shot into a fox" thats just plain stupid,we as hunters owe it what ever where shooting at to kill it cleanly,hence the need to be able to place an accurate shot into any animal for a 1 shot kill.

the correct advice would be to find out what the rifle likes,then parctice,practice and paractise a bit more before attempting to kill anything

we all have to start somehere but starting of on the right track is most important instead of listening to "it will do"

best of luck to the OP but take your time,dont rush out to try and kill something get the basics right it will make you a better shooter

Edited March 22, 2012 by Ackley

[david hunter]

try to keep within 1in circle at 100 yds.also if useing bipod left arm under right arm relax and slowely squeze trigger.i use 50grain remington accupoint very explosive.tried privi same as you all over the place.safe shooting dave.

[Stratts]

Cheers for all the input chaps I know more practice is needed and don't intend to go out after anything for a while yet as I am nowhere near happy with the grouping myself

 

One reason I ask as well is that I won a free Muntjac stalk which I am going on next week and need to be able to put 3 shots into a 3" target off the bipod and sticks. This will be with a perfectly zeroed estate rifle although I don't know what cal yet. If I am not confident or able I will just go as an observer to learn the ropes as I've never stalked deer before.

[Ackley]

Cheers for all the input chaps I know more practice is needed and don't intend to go out after anything for a while yet as I am nowhere near happy with the grouping myself

 

One reason I ask as well is that I won a free Muntjac stalk which I am going on next week and need to be able to put 3 shots into a 3" target off the bipod and sticks. This will be with a perfectly zeroed estate rifle although I don't know what cal yet. If I am not confident or able I will just go as an observer to learn the ropes as I've never stalked deer before.

first thing is "dont get yourself worked up about the target" tell your guide you have very little to no experience with a C/F rifle he should understand and allow you to be comfortable in taking your test shots

just relax breath and enjoy,dont get pushed in rushing a shot make sure you are 110% happy

[Stratts]

Thanks mate we've already spoken and i'll not be rushed that's for sure!

[Dekers]

Cheers mate here's the 3 shots (I know there's improvement needed!)

 

The elevation's good 1" high at 100 yds I think it's just my trigger control and breathing that needs work

 

Also how much does wind affect the 22-250 coz it was blowing right to left a bit last night bout 10mph ish

 

 

Which part of that isn't going to stop a fox with a 22-250?

 

Ok, you maybe need to adjust the scope slightly, and keep looking at ammo choices, but don't beat yourself up!

 

Accuracy is essential but this isn't Competition target shooting, and the right ammo in the right general area stops anything, 1" is perfectly adequate generally!

 

[gixer1]

I was waiting for this....

 

If you are consistently shooting the group shown at 100yards it'll kill a fox all day long.

 

The group size will tighten up with practice but that group (if it's around that every time) would be accepted by most estates I know of AND in actual fact would get you you DSC 1 too all day long.

 

It will improve over time, you know where your bullet is going by knowing you have a good backstop an being able to see what is around/behind the target - unlike people who shoot under a lamp at 500-600 yards as the beam will never give you a full view.

 

Most people start off shooting groups like this with centrefires and as NJC says the elevation is fine so it is probably just your prep for the shot - try not to strangle the death out of the rifle - a firm but relaxed grip is fine, and try to watch for the round hitting the target as you will find it helps you stop flinching and stops you worrying about recoil.

 

Regards,

Gixer

Edited March 23, 2012 by gixer1

[1066]

Not a bad start Stratts but I think you have too many variables here. First you need to be sure of your rifle/ammo combination. Most modern rifles with suitable ammunition are capable of around and inch to an inch and a half straight out of the box, many may well do better than this, but without the correct ammunition the group could well look like a shotgun pattern.

 

I would suggest shooting from a really firm solid position either off the ground or a bench if possible with suitable sandbags. Make sure the barrel is not contacting the sandbags and that the scope parallax is adjusted exactly. Start with a clean and copper free barrel and a still day.

 

Now shoot your groups, 3 shot or 5 would be better and measure and record them carefully.

You may find that those elusive cloverleaves are there already. If they are then you know where the problem lies, practice, practice, practice.

 

If the groups are still not in the inch range then you will need to find out why (bedding, barrel not floating, action screws loose etc. etc.

 

You have a tool there quite capable of taking rabbits out to several hundred yards but you will need to get those groups down to thumbnail size.

[Grandalf]

I was waiting for this....

 

If you are consistently shooting the group shown at 100yards it'll kill a fox all day long.

 

The group size will tighten up with practice but that group (if it's around that every time) would be accepted by most estates I know of AND in actual fact would get you you DSC 1 too all day long.

 

It will improve over time, you know where your bullet is going by knowing you have a good backstop an being able to see what is around/behind the target - unlike people who shoot under a lamp at 500-600 yards as the beam will never give you a full view.

 

Most people start off shooting groups like this with centrefires and as NJC says the elevation is fine so it is probably just your prep for the shot - try not to strangle the death out of the rifle - a firm but relaxed grip is fine, and try to watch for the round hitting the target as you will find it helps you stop flinching and stops you worrying about recoil.

 

Regards,

Gixer

 

Well said Gixer1.

I was also waiting for all the 'experts' to start telling him this that and the other - They are so predictable. (Have they always been so good as they are now? Did they never have to learn?)

Poor lad will be putting his new pride and joy rifle up for sale if he's made to feel so useless.

What he achieved on his second trip out with the rifle was perfectly acceptable. He will get better as he gets more experience.

If he zeros the gun to 1" high at 100yds and limits his foxing to 220yds (ish) with a good backstop he will be alright. The 'tinkering' can come later.

Practice a lot and enjoy yourself lad.

Good luck with the stalking trip.

[Dunkield]

Stratts, do you have a moderator on the rifle?

[gixer1]

One thing I will add - do not opt to go as an observer on your free stalk if you are consistently shooting this group - the stalker with you will keep things within your abilities as long as you tell him - it would be a shame to waste a cracking opertunity.

 

everyone starts somewhere - and most start with worse groups than this, normal average people (as most of us are) take time to get used to recoil and report - it's only the demi-god's among the PW members that start perfect...

 

EDIT to add -

 

From a man that knows a thing or two (Chuck Hawks)

 

Hunting Rifle Accuracy:

Enough is Enough!

 

By Chuck Hawks

 

 

 

I believe it was Townsend Whelen who wrote that, "Only accurate rifles are interesting." As a general proposition I would tend to agree with him. Few things are more frustrating than a firearm that cannot be made to consistently hit the target.

 

Accuracy is important in a hunting rifle, but not all important. Especially on the Internet, accuracy has taken on an almost mythical status. No one seems willing to admit to shooting groups larger than 1 minute of angle (MOA). I have read absurd discussions on shooting forums about how to shave 1/10th MOA from a hunting rifle's performance and postings from (obviously inexperienced) shooters distressed because their new rifle could not produce sub-1" groups at 100 yards. It is as if these shooters are living in some sort of alternative reality.

 

Professional gun writers contribute to this mythology by routinely reporting rifle "tests" in which every advertiser's smokepole routinely shoots 1" groups (or smaller) at 100 yards. Ditto for every factory load, regardless of caliber or purpose. Sure they do!

 

I have written it before and I will write it again: these groups are achieved on a word processor, not in the field. At best what the writer means is that once, when the stars were momentarily aligned in the sky, he shot a 1" group with the test rifle. He will never admit in print that he shot nine other groups ranging in size from 2" to 4" with the same rifle.

 

However, the inexperienced and the gullible take these "test reports" to heart. The most absurd exaggeration is accepted without question, and endlessly repeated (and embellished) online. The boldest liars become authorities on marksmanship and rifle performance. It would be depressing if it were not so absurd!

 

Accuracy is relative. Realistically, there is no such thing as absolute accuracy, by which I mean a rifle capable of 0.0 MOA accuracy. Some specialized rifles can come very close, shooting what may look like one-hole groups, but there is always some variation, caused by the fact that no rifle or bullet is truly perfect. There is always some manufacturing tolerance, a tiny "plus or minus" factor in anything made by man that falls short of absolute perfection.

 

Accuracy can be defined in terms of group size at a given range, such as a 1" three shot group at 100 yards or 100 meters, measured from center to center of the points of impact. It can also be defined in terms of the angular dispersion of the bullets. Angle is described in terms of degrees, minutes of arc and seconds of arc. There are 360 degrees in a full circle, 60 minutes of arc in one degree and 60 seconds of arc in one arc-minute. For general purposes, one minute of angle equals a 1" group (center to center) at 100 yards.

 

What is meant by the term "practical" as applied to accuracy? The dictionary defines practical as: "Capable of being used or put into effect; useful." So the next question must be: accuracy useful for hunting what kind of game, at what range?

 

For the purposes of this little piece the answer to that question are the common species of antelope, goat, sheep and deer hunted in North America (and similar size game worldwide). These are often called medium size big game animals, or sometimes just medium game, and they range in size from the smallish pronghorn antelope and sub-species of whitetail deer weighing about 90 pounds on the hoof to sheep, mountain goats and mule deer than might average up to 200 pounds. Even very large members of these species seldom exceed 300 pounds in live weight.

 

The smallest of these animals offers about an 8" diameter heart-lung kill area and most offer at least a 10" kill area. So, to be conservative, let's say that our rifle needs to be able to put its bullets (from a cold barrel) into about a 6" circle at whatever range our skill and the trajectory of the cartridge we are using allows. This leaves a little room for error on even the smallest medium game animals.

 

For the hunter using a 100-150 yard hunting rifle, such as rifles chambered for what are fundamentally pistol cartridges (.357 Magnum, .44-40, .44 Magnum, etc.) or low pressure cartridges like the .38-55 and .45-70, a 4 MOA group will suffice. 4" groups at 100 yards don't look very impressive at the range, but 4 MOA groups mean all bullets within a 6" circle at 150 yards, about the maximum useful range of this class of cartridges. A .44 Magnum rifle that will put all of its bullets into a 4" circle at 100 yards is a deadly deer rifle, as accurate as it needs to be.

 

A 200 yard hunting rifle, such as a .30-30, .35 Remington, or .444 Marlin needs to print 3 MOA (3") groups at 100 yards. This means that all of the bullets will be landing inside of a 6" circle at 200 yards. A North American hunter can take any deer, sheep, pronghorn, or goat with such a rifle. In Townsend Whelen's day, few hunting rifles would shoot better than that. Many will today, but practically speaking it doesn't matter. 3 MOA is good enough for 100% kills out to at least 200 yards. A 200 yard rifle that shoots 1 MOA groups is not one whit deadlier than one that shoots 3 MOA groups.

 

The hunter with a long range rifle capable of taking medium game at 300 yards (such as a 6mm Remington, .25-06, .270 Winchester, 7mm Remington Magnum or .300 Winchester Magnum), needs a rifle that averages 2 MOA groups. Those 2" groups at 100 yards will open to 6" at 300 yards. Very few hunters can take advantage of more accuracy than that in the field, so 2 MOA represents the practical limit of accuracy for most hunters. I am sure that Col. Whelen would have classified such a rifle as very "interesting." Of course, it is nice if Old Betsy will shoot even smaller groups at the rifle range, but it is simply not necessary from a practical standpoint.For the master shot with a trajectory table developed for his specific rifle and load, a high quality rangefinder, a solid rest, and shooting an ultra-long range cartridge like the .240 to .300 Weatherby Magnums, .264 Winchester Magnum, or 7mm Remington Ultra Mag, a 400 yard shot might be justified. If so, that hunter needs a rifle that will reliably shoot into 1.5 MOA. 1.5 MOA means a rifle that groups within 3" at 200 yards and 6" at 400 yards. This is a very interesting rifle indeed, particularly considering the muzzle blast and recoil of most ultra-long range cartridges. Such rifles are quite scarce in the real world. At 400 yards the merest twitch by the hunter, or a puff of wind 200 yards away, will throw the bullet clear out of the kill area. The inherent accuracy of the rifle has become a secondary consideration compared to other variables.

 

Groups better than 1.5 MOA are swell to brag about online, but irrelevant in the field. Accuracy beyond the practical limit is simply unnecessary. No one is justified in taking shots longer than 400 yards with any hunting rifle or cartridge. Sub-MOA rifles are nice, but irrelevant to the hunter.

 

Many other factors are more important to a successful and humane hunt, the functional reliability of the rifle and load being among them. This mitigates against hunting cartridges derived from PPC-type bench rest cartridges, for technical reasons that I don't have time to go into here. Examples of inappropriate hunting rounds include the WSSM, WSM and Rem. SAUM cartridges. Examples of cartridges designed to feed reliably from bolt action rifles include the .270 Winchester, .30-06 and .375 H&H Magnum. Compare, say, a .300 WSM to a .30-06 and note the differences in design, then buy hunting rifles chambered for cartridges that look like the latter.

 

Perhaps paramount among the factors more important than accuracy beyond the practical limit is the terminal performance of the bullet. It must penetrate into the vitals of the game to do its job and it must have expanded to destroy the maximum amount of tissue once it gets there. An adequately accurate bullet that does a good job of killing game is far preferable to a brilliantly accurate bullet that does a marginal job when it hits the target. Thus, while I always test a number of bullets and loads in each of my hunting rifles to find the one that gives the best accuracy, I test only bullets that are widely regarded as appropriate for the velocity and type of hunting for which they will be used. No match or other exotic bullets need apply.

 

My .257 Weatherby Magnum rifle, for example, will shoot at or just under 1.5 MOA (1.5" at 100 yards) with Weatherby factory loads using the 120 grain Nosler Partition bullet. The same rifle will shoot into 1 MOA or a little less at the same distance with Weatherby factory loads using the 100 grain Spire Point bullet. On light game the 100 grain Spire Point is a deadly bullet, but for general purpose hunting I load up with the Nosler Partition cartridges. The advantage of the heavier, super-deadly Partition bullet far outweighs a paltry .5 MOA difference in accuracy.

 

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

Edited March 23, 2012 by gixer1

[Stratts]

Thanks guys I don't mind reading everything that's posted, I digest everything and the rifle will certainly be going nowhere

 

I'm pretty confident in my ability and know the groups will tighten with a bit more range time. I will also not be shooting past 200 yards for a very long time, if ever, as I don't think it'll be needed on my permissions tbh!!

 

The thing that I struggled with was keeping focused on the target through the scope when firing. Whether it's me flinching or the recoil of the rifle I'm sure but I lost sight momentarily on the shots!

Edited March 23, 2012 by Stratts

[Stratts]

Stratts, do you have a moderator on the rifle?

 

Yes mate it's a T8.

 

Here's the rifle - Savage Model 112 with a Hawke scope. The rifle is a friends which I have on a shared condition and I'd like to change the scope as I think it's a bit average tbh. Gotta speak to him about it though!

[Stratts]

Thanks for the article Gixer very interesting and pretty much sums up what I need to achieve

 

My shooting buddy and I were chatting about accuracy with our small bore rifles funnily enough only this week, and both agreed it's easy to get dragged into thinking we need to be shooting one hole groups all the time. Most of the time this is influenced by reading the forums!

[Ackley]

Well said Gixer1.

I was also waiting for all the 'experts' to start telling him this that and the other - They are so predictable. (Have they always been so good as they are now? Did they never have to learn?)

Poor lad will be putting his new pride and joy rifle up for sale if he's made to feel so useless.

What he achieved on his second trip out with the rifle was perfectly acceptable. He will get better as he gets more experience.

If he zeros the gun to 1" high at 100yds and limits his foxing to 220yds (ish) with a good backstop he will be alright. The 'tinkering' can come later.

Practice a lot and enjoy yourself lad.

Good luck with the stalking trip.

I think you and your chum Gixer should go and re read my post very carefully,as you seem to be "trying" to pick holes in something that isnt there "again"

as to 500/600 shots on the lamp Gixer pray tell where does it say anyhting about that ?? you really do have a serious attitude problem,I would go see someone about it

Edited March 23, 2012 by Ackley

[1066]

Well that was an interesting read Gixer and all very true. I still think you need to seperate the man from the machine until you know the capabilities of the machine.

If the rifle will produce reasonably tight groups in perfect conditions from a firm stable shooting platform then everything else is down to the shooter.

 

If the rifle and the shooter are both unknown quantities then where is your benchmark.

I see many shooters trying to zero rifles with a flimsy bipod, unknown range, unknown bullet weight or velocity, no idea of the twist rate of their barrel, no idea of how many clicks to moa etc etc.

 

Some very simple tuning may be all that is required to turn a 3 moa rifle into a 1 moa rifle.

[gixer1]

A good friend and experienced shot showed me a good indicator of how to tell if it's you or the rifle effecting the shot - the ex-squaddies on here may be familiar with this -

 

Get a friend to come with you to where you are shooting targets, ask a friend to cycle the bolt a few times on the rifle while you are looking away and only sometimes actually load a round and then place the rifle in a ready to fire position with the safety on.

 

you then get yourself ready to fire the rifle and concentrate on the target and fire the shot - ask your friend to observe and see if you flinch on the shots where no round has been chambered - you'd be surprised hom much you move (and the muzzle end moves!) with a flinch in anticipation of recoil....

 

You will now try to control this and eventually relax...

 

Regards,

 

gixer