Shadowchaser Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 Some may have seen my topic regarding the purchase of an auto clay trap and this ties in with it slightly. For the past 7 years myself and a small group of friends (some who have licences, others who don't) have been shooting on my land using a manual trap and perhaps shooting approx 25 - 50 clays each (depending on how many people are there). During no 12 month period have we shot on more than a dozen occasions. Now with the auto trap soon to be on it's way I intend to shoot more often, both alone and with friends. (Hopefully it will encourage people who were otherwise put off by having to do a stint on the manual trap). Now I've never asked for payment (for cost of clays, shells etc) but have always accepted what people have given me entirely of their own accord (usually around a fiver per session). If I was to start shooting on my own, in the evenings and more at weekends with others would I be able to exceed the 28 day limit (considering I'm not doing it as a business) couple with the fact that on my own it would be a case of perhaps no more than say 25 shots? I have no intention of going commercial at the present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicW Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 If I was to start shooting on my own, in the evenings and more at weekends with others would I be able to exceed the 28 day limit (considering I'm not doing it as a business) couple with the fact that on my own it would be a case of perhaps no more than say 25 shots? I don't think you will be allowed to exceed the 28 day rule. This rule exists to protect other people from the nuisance effect or disturbance caused by the activity in question,not just shooting. More than 28 times a year and the activity has be approved by the local authority and is then subject to planning permission and checks regarding noise pollution etc. Vic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beretta Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 Exactly as Vic says Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark@mbb Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 it all depends on how close to your neighbour you are and if you invite them / him to shoot that could get you every other weekend my nearest neighbour is a mile away so we can shoot whenever we want i bought an auto trap off promatic at the midland and sit it on the telehandler i got a great deal or i think it was Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 I wish you well with your venture, but I would take advice about it not being a business. However you put it - people shoot and they are not doing it for free. Whilst you might say this is just an arrangement between friends, accept that the Council or HMRC might not share your view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utectok Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 I shoot quite alot (2 or 3 times a week) at times but my trap is a few miles from anyone. Btw the 28 days rule doesn't allow you to cause a noise nuisance and you could still get told to stop shooting even if it was only a couple of times if people complain be nice to your neighbours I'd say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 I shoot quite alot (2 or 3 times a week) at times but my trap is a few miles from anyone. Btw the 28 days rule doesn't allow you to cause a noise nuisance and you could still get told to stop shooting even if it was only a couple of times if people complain be nice to your neighbours I'd say Indeed, as for business, best idea might be to ask guests to bring there own clays.....if you did start it as a business the outlay would probably be higher than the return and be a loss which may allow you some tax back...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowchaser Posted May 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 (edited) I am not interested in profit, this really is just a case of friends coming to shoot some clays. Like some may have friends round for a poker night or an Xbox night. Edited May 13, 2012 by Shadowchaser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 It's only a problem if someone catches you. Like any planning permission. Now if you build a house without permission and no-one complains then after a period of time there is nothing they can do (3 or 4 years, it's not long). I wonder if this would apply to this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowchaser Posted May 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 It's only a problem if someone catches you. Like any planning permission. Now if you build a house without permission and no-one complains then after a period of time there is nothing they can do (3 or 4 years, it's not long). I wonder if this would apply to this situation. I wonder if I could shoot clays behind a wall of straw bails for a few years and then take them down - like that guy tried to do with a house! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 My only experience of controversial planning issues is indirect and related to a private airstrip on a farm. In your case, my first calls would be to the CPSA and BASC to see if they have any published planning guidance. I would then call a local planning consultant who specialises in more rural project as they will know the local planning officers and what is like to be accepted or not. Work on the neighbours too, to get them on our side. If you are doing it on a small scale now, ask it is disturbing them and, if so, when is the best time to avoid such disturbance - maybe ask them around to have a go, give them a drink and act like a politician ( and I don't mean shake their hand, kiss their babies and then shaft them!). Approaching these things properly can increase your chances no end. Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huffhuff Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 I am not interested in profit, this really is just a case of friends coming to shoot some clays. Like some may have friends round for a poker night or an Xbox night. Yes but if I have people round for poker, I don't make them pay! If you are taking money and providing a service...surely it isn't just mates coming round for a shoot?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WelshLamb Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 He's said he doesn't MAKE them pay, just accepts a token amount if offered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxtav Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 Now I've never asked for payment (for cost of clays, shells etc) but have always accepted what people have given me entirely of their own accord (usually around a fiver per session). If I was to start shooting on my own, in the evenings and more at weekends with others would I be able to exceed the 28 day limit (considering I'm not doing it as a business) couple with the fact that on my own it would be a case of perhaps no more than say 25 shots? I have no intention of going commercial at the present. With regards the 28 days I would imagine this would be a condition whether or not the shoot was commercial or private as it's to do with noise and planning and these are supposed to apply to everyone the same. With regards not accepting payment be carefull. We have this problem with the horsebox due to the regulations for transporting livestock. If it's for personal use the regulations (time, distance, etc) don't apply apart from general animal health concerns. We can transport a pals horse but are not allowed to receive payment otherwise it's not personal and all the regs apply. Payment is classed as money or moneys worth so even if they give you fuel money or a bottle of wine it's not private. You will probaly find that HMRC thinks along the same lines and would consider you as running a business as they are giving you some money or moneys worth towards it. Just make sure you have everything in writing (I would even consider getting signed letters from the neighbours saying they don't have a problem with it) that is written in in plain english as all you need is one do gooder (and there will be one somewhere who can't get their head round someone shooting out in the countryside)to complain for a whole lot of grief to start. Any common sense has now gone out the window with councils, HMRC etc and as they don't seem to want to touch the big boys and there very expensive lawyers you would be right in the firing line for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilR Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 it all depends on how close to your neighbour you are and if you invite them / him to shoot that could get you every other weekend my nearest neighbour is a mile away so we can shoot whenever we want i bought an auto trap off promatic at the midland and sit it on the telehandler i got a great deal or i think it was Mark A friend of mine has a shooting ground (established in the 30's) which was involved in a court case over noise nuisance. I was asked by my friend to go with the local EHO to one property where the owners had complained about the noise. I had my friend's handheld noise meter and the EHO had a box of very specialist kit, to record the noise levels of the test shots fired. This particular property was a mile away. The majority of readings recorded by both meters were around 65dBa, with some hitting 80dBa. Quite frankly I wouldn't have put up with the noise either. Best not to think that a mile is a safe distance for noise, especially if you're shooting in that direction with a following wind. The upshot was that two Olympic trench layouts were shutdown, and the previously open sporting stands had to be resited to fire away from properties and enclosed. My advice is don't get to the stage where the local EHO is involved as you're on an expensive hiding to nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utectok Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) Depending on how close your neibours are I'd just do it every couple of weeks it'll be simpler in the long run. Btw I'd not worry to much about whether it's bussiness or not it's the noise and planning that will be the problem! If your desperate get a hushpower .410 and some of the new eley trap carts Edited May 14, 2012 by utectok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowchaser Posted May 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 Depending on how close your neibours are I'd just do it every couple of weeks it'll be simpler in the long run. Btw I'd not worry to much about whether it's bussiness or not it's the noise and planning that will be the problem! If your desperate get a hushpower .410 and some of the new eley trap carts In the long run if I keep it at one or two evenings a week by myself with a shoot every other Sunday with friends it shouldn't be too bad. Regarding offerings from friends who are shooting - who is going to find out? Indeed the noise and possible backlash from do gooders is probably the number one concern. I know the neighbouring farmers will be okay about it. There is however a newish housing estate (probably about 500/600 yards minimum from where I'll be shooting) and there are some do gooders among the residents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utectok Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 There is however a newish housing estate (probably about 500/600 yards minimum from where I'll be shooting) and there are some do gooders among the residents. oh dear :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowchaser Posted May 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 Another problem that may arise is this: The farm inbetween me and the estate also has someone shooting on it. I've seen them rough shooting in winter and only last week someone was shooting clays with an auto trap. They don't seem to shoot there often but.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicW Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 There is however a newish housing estate (probably about 500/600 yards minimum from where I'll be shooting) and there are some do gooders among the residents. That close you are going to get complaints.Complaints are made by people two and three miles away!! Vic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitclays Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 You will have problems mate. I would look for another venue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowchaser Posted May 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 You will have problems mate. I would look for another venue I've been shooting on my own land for seven years, albeit infrequently with clays and rough shooting in the winter. I believe if I don't over do it and try not go over the 28 day rule, keep changing the times and days on which I/we shoot, then it shouldn't be a problem. I suppose the 28 day limit and payment aspects are not really my core problem, it's what the housing estate make of it if they do notice an increase in shooting. They're a real bunch, recently they formed a group to combat a nearby wind turbine proposal and boy did they go for it. Newspaper interviews, leaflet drops, petitions, resident meetings, letters to the local MP, gathering in town to talk to people and the list goes on. I think going commerical would be a non starter with that lot there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowchaser Posted May 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 oh dear :( Regarding your other post, I do have a moderated .410 so I could use that when practicing. Aren't there also low noise/sub sonic shells? I will look into it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 As a commercial venture, it seems a complete non-starter. As for keeping it friendly:- Regarding offerings from friends who are shooting - who is going to find out? You can cross your fingers and hope, but it won't last. It could go horribly pear shaped on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 It sounds like you might be a bit too close to manage this without problems, it's surprising how just one person with too much time on their hands can cause many problems, never mind potentially an estate full. If you do try anything it will have to be for no more than 28 days of the year, sometimes you can get away with more if nobody cares but if you're that near a housing estate I think everything you do needs to be done by the book. If you try to go ahead then I'd start by asking someone like the CPSA or BASC for advice, not taking payment might change things and make it a non-commercial venture, I'd have thought you'd need some insurance, or at least for each shooter to be insured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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