njc110381 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Hi chaps. This is a topic that can get quite heated at times but I've just finished loading for my .223 and it's fresh in my mind so I thought I'd come on here and ask. I've never loaded a cartridge over book maximum myself but know of people who do. I'm quite confident of spotting pressure signs and have seen them first hand with other shooters loads and also in some of my own guns when working up. But... I worked up a load some time ago now using 55gr Berger Varminters in my .223. I'm loading over BLC-2 and have reached the max load with absolutely no signs of pressure at all. It shoots very well and I have larger calibres so I'm not feeling the need to stoke it any further (in fact the best group was .25gr under max so that's what I'm using) but this is new to me. I've always started to get light signs of pressure when approaching max and have backed off but not this time. Is this normal? I'm worried I may be missing something although I have no idea what! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Is the accuracy acceptable to you?, if so leave it alone. If not I would be looking to drop the load rather than up it, failing that use some Vit !!. Putting more powder through will increase heat and barrel throat wear quite fast. You get to a point where more powder = only a small velocity increase. Shooting a downloaded cartridge is nice a smooth and just as deadly. Up to 250 yards in 223 you wont see a ballistic difference. Be aware that proof loads are usually 2 grains above max book, so you are getting into danger areas above max book. If you try it then only go .1gr at a time, watch for primer cratering, thats usually the first sign. You might see what the boys on Saubier think. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 heck, i always try and get up to the presure limits to find how close i am running. Older books give hotter loads, the industry specs aint changed though! The almost std target shooters load for a 155 scenar and N140 is quite a long way up on the listed max yet hundreds use it. its not a good move unless you are 100% aware of what your about though. No loading book says with this primer, this brass in this chamber and these things all have an effect on the pressure. A load that shows pressure is not useable though and i also try and develop loads on hot days. I also re-check on starting a new tub of powder or any other variable. I have a theory that the most dangerous loads are poorly constructed or too low on powder fill by nervous beginers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Funny you mention that, I think the load people talk of is 46gr but unless you single load, i dont know how they manage it as I get to 44gr and after that you start having to compress the load to get the bullet down to 2.810 col to mag feed. The only load I have really ever personally deliberately gone past the limit on was 6.5x55 as all the data was written for old mauser actions, i of course was very careful watching pressure signs. Fast forward to now and I was running 120's at similar velocities to those chased by...................... 6.5x47 shooters regularly seem to stoke their guns to crazy levels, often accepting serious case head deformation with ejector marks etc. They should have bought a 260 lol. Bear in mind with the larger cases you are doing this with slower powders and lower pressures. NJC, regardless of case size, remember pressure is pressure! I have pm'd you too btw regarding large subsonics, I have been playing with my 308 today. I beg to differ, can get more in than that and mag feed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Its very rare that best accuracy is obtained with max loads unless you are using a very slow burning powder. Of course it should never be done. However, and this is not condoning anything. The powder manufacturers are so scared of being sued that a lot of people know, or believe they know, that the published tables contain a safety margin. A dangerous assumption. Most years the NRA investigate around ten rifle failure incidents. Most if not all are down to reloading errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Trying not to put my foot in it like normal,,,,, BLC-2 in 222 is/was very forgiving and I usually(not always) found best results at 2grn over listed book! Compressing it is not a problem. Proof loads are not 2grain over max! Proof as I understand it runs at 70% increase over industry standard pressures. One of my all time favouries BLC-2, always got some in Most loads advice a magnum primer. U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted July 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Accuracy isn't a problem. In fact considering it's a cheap mass produced A-Bolt in which I cannot find the lands to work out OAL without going over magazine length, it shoots well beyond what I could expect. With 27gr of powder it will put five rounds into one ragged hole at 100 yards and with any load I have tried right down to start it will do just over 1/2"! Not bad considering it's one of the cheapest rifles available new. The load I'm running has been used on steaming hot days with no issues. In fact I remember on one range day the metal parts of the rifle were too hot to touch just from sitting in the sun! Kent, I think you've covered the whole difference in opinion with fister in your earlier post - brass make could be the answer? I know even in the little Hornet there's 1gr difference in capacity between makers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 Hi chaps. This is a topic that can get quite heated at times but I've just finished loading for my .223 and it's fresh in my mind so I thought I'd come on here and ask. I've never loaded a cartridge over book maximum myself but know of people who do. I'm quite confident of spotting pressure signs and have seen them first hand with other shooters loads and also in some of my own guns when working up. But... I worked up a load some time ago now using 55gr Berger Varminters in my .223. I'm loading over BLC-2 and have reached the max load with absolutely no signs of pressure at all. It shoots very well and I have larger calibres so I'm not feeling the need to stoke it any further (in fact the best group was .25gr under max so that's what I'm using) but this is new to me. I've always started to get light signs of pressure when approaching max and have backed off but not this time. Is this normal? I'm worried I may be missing something although I have no idea what! I found exactly the same with my .222 using H4198 and 40gr V max.The .222 is rated to ensure a margin of safety with older/lightweight actions though. The .223 is rated higher I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) Its very rare that best accuracy is obtained with max loads unless you are using a very slow burning powder. The powder manufacturers are so scared of being sued that a lot of people know, or believe they know, that the published tables contain a safety margin. A dangerous assumption. Agreed. Proof loads are not 2grain over max! Proof as I understand it runs at 70% increase over industry standard pressures. I took my 20BR to be prooved at the Birmingham proof house three years ago, they had never done one before. The proof master asked what the working load was, working not max, then created 2 proof cartridges using my brass loaded 2 grains above that, these were used as the proof cartridges. We had already loaded it 5 grains above that working load in testing !. Accuracy isn't a problem. In fact considering it's a cheap mass produced A-Bolt in which I cannot find the lands to work out OAL without going over magazine length, it shoots well beyond what I could expect. With 27gr of powder it will put five rounds into one ragged hole at 100 yards and with any load I have tried right down to start it will do just over 1/2"! Not bad considering it's one of the cheapest rifles available new. The load I'm running has been used on steaming hot days with no issues. In fact I remember on one range day the metal parts of the rifle were too hot to touch just from sitting in the sun! For a working rifle you are as good as it gets, leave it alone is my advice unless you want to start playing with downloaded loads, they are so so sweet shooting. A Edited July 22, 2012 by Alycidon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 Im talking at SAAMI c.o.l.. AI mags you can stretch it to about 2.845", TRG goes longer but then again now we havent got much parallel bullet shank in the case neck. Well it sure worked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 I think there are two nodes of accuraccy when working up a load. One will be quite low down, the other fairly high up (sometimes over book recomendations). Have a look at some different data and compare you will find much variation on were the max pressures exist. This is because no two chambers create the same pressure and brass, primers, bullet seating, powder lots, ambeint temprature on and on all have thier effect There is always one golden and unbreakable rule though- NEVER CARRY ON AFTER EXPERIANCING ANY PRESSURE SIGNS when working up a load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 Accuracy isn't a problem. In fact considering it's a cheap mass produced A-Bolt in which I cannot find the lands to work out OAL without going over magazine length, it shoots well beyond what I could expect. With 27gr of powder it will put five rounds into one ragged hole at 100 yards and with any load I have tried right down to start it will do just over 1/2"! Not bad considering it's one of the cheapest rifles available new. The load I'm running has been used on steaming hot days with no issues. In fact I remember on one range day the metal parts of the rifle were too hot to touch just from sitting in the sun! Kent, I think you've covered the whole difference in opinion with fister in your earlier post - brass make could be the answer? I know even in the little Hornet there's 1gr difference in capacity between makers. I have a large compendium of Hornet loads from data books. The differences are vast. Yet all were loaded to industry max pressures of today, now previously pressures for the calibre were far higher (again fear of old and weak rifles and law suits) made them reduce presure limits allowable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 I have a large compendium of Hornet loads from data books. We can tell you've got lots of books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) I took my 20BR to be prooved at the Birmingham proof house three years ago, they had never done one before. The proof master asked what the working load was, working not max, then created 2 proof cartridges using my brass loaded 2 grains above that, these were used as the proof cartridges. We had already loaded it 5 grains above that working load in testing !. To be honest, I think they just make a lot of this stuff up as they go along. There is no way that proof testing a rifle like that serves any useful purpose. They did not know what the 'working' rounds pressure was, they did not know what the proof loads they made up were producing either. The bottom line, really, is that they know full well that a modern rifle is not going to blow up with a load slightly over industry standard pressure and almost certainly won't do even with a significant over charge so just do whatever they feel like. In the vast majority of cases proofing of guns these days is a needless expense and doesn't really 'prove' anything at all. I don't think there is any other industry which tests every single one of it's products via a semi-destructive test so why do guns need to be done like that? It is an out-dated, wasteful and utterly redundant system in this day and age. J. Edited July 23, 2012 by JonathanL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livefast123 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) You don't find the car industry testing every car for safety just in case it blows up or has a crash.... Edited July 23, 2012 by Livefast123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 i mainly reloads shotguns, as for reloading over the data book recomendations, it is often done with shotgun. let me give you an example, cip and saami have different maximum service pressures for there cartridges. cip 740 bar / saami 11500psi most loads for general cartridges are often only loaded to 10,000psi so can actually be loaded an extra 1500psi above the last published load. as for cip, most loads stop at whatever, usually about 90% service pressure or alot less. most of the loads settle down when the pressures are 90-95% of the maximum service pressure, this is usually low variation on pressure and speed. say i have a 400 bar shotgun cartridge, and the maximum is 740bar for 12gauge. 400 /740 = 0.54 x 100= 54% maximum service pressure. - technically its a lemon. that needs to be at 600 before the loads settle down. - now for some cartridges it needs to be higher, before the cartridge actuallty settles down. the .410 needs pressure to run it well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Accuracy isn't a problem. In fact considering it's a cheap mass produced A-Bolt in which I cannot find the lands to work out OAL without going over magazine length, it shoots well beyond what I could expect. With 27gr of powder it will put five rounds into one ragged hole at 100 yards and with any load I have tried right down to start it will do just over 1/2"! Not bad considering it's one of the cheapest rifles available new. The load I'm running has been used on steaming hot days with no issues. In fact I remember on one range day the metal parts of the rifle were too hot to touch just from sitting in the sun! For a working rifle you are as good as it gets, leave it alone is my advice unless you want to start playing with downloaded loads, they are so so sweet shooting. A HAHA!! We do try to tell him but he must tinker It will only fall on deaf ears. this in NJC we are talking about. he cant leave anything alone. Sorry thats a lie, he doesn't keep a rifle long enough to worry about leaving it alone. haha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 We can tell you've got lots of books. knoledge is power, listening to others can be usefull at times have a look in your doctors or solisitors if they are short of books go elsewere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.