Muzzles for cats

[Reece]

As far as the local wild bird population is concerned, I think the cats have killed maybe half a dozen over the years

 

That will just be the ones you find though. After a cat makes a kill, a lot get left outside, and as a result, not all of them are found. That figure of 55 million prey items a year killed by cats could be out by many millions for this reason.

[theosmith]

shhhhhhhhhh dont say that your dog chases them ,it might put a nail in the coffin for shooter lol lol

 

sorry doesnt so much as chase them more of cornering them lol, its only jack russel so the size is pretty even except the dogs tail wont fluff up just goes pointy got to say tho jack russels also keep rodents down and dont catch the birds

[Bloke]

That will just be the ones you find though. After a cat makes a kill, a lot get left outside, and as a result, not all of them are found. That figure of 55 million prey items a year killed by cats could be out by many millions for this reason.

Which equally means it is so inaccurate as to be a worthless figure.. Some cats love birds some don't. My oldest cat who died recently aged 24, was a serious bird chaser, so he never got let out and was as happy as a pig in **** in the house, the old cat has no interest in birds at all - never has, will darn near let birds sit on her nose, she sits or sleeps in the garden and even the sparrows will ignore her. Now if it is a rat/mouse/vole/mole, THAT is different, it will chase and kill them without a thought, leaving the remains as always on the mat!

[pigeon pete]

true ,had a few of them have my ankles as well when i helped my m8 on his milk round ,he gave me the houses with the jacks ,lol dont they bite and well fast

[theosmith]

yh very quick some are quite vicious but mine is quite nice i adopted her off some people that never walked it etc etc when i first got it i go to stroke it and it would cower away becuase had been beaten.

 

now it brings me back rabbits but hares are just to big for it, but savages pigeons but she trys.

she will chase anything that moves purely becuase it thinks its a game, catches mice at work as we are over ran as on afarm and man next door stores animal feeds

[pigeon pete]

nice one ;-)

[walshie]

how long do we think this topic will last before its closed?

 

A long, long time.

[hillmouse]

Well reasoned discussion and acceptance of the views of others without recourse to insult and suggestions of illegal acts and 3 pages in to a thread on cats has to be a record.

 

Based on my own observations.

 

Cats are of little value in proper rodent control. Those farms with a plethora of ferals and semi-domestics tend also to be those over run with serious numbers of rodents.

The serious and growing rodent problem in urban and suburban areas is surely evidence of the inability of a generally well fed cat popualtion to control rodents effectively.

Cats have a strange legal status in that the owner is not legaly liable for the destructive actions of their animals but their animals do have legal status as property with no exceptions or defence against a claim of criminal damage by owners of property or livestock who may take steps to prevent damage by them resulting in death or injury to the cat.

 

I have posted before regarding the cats "who never go far" according to their owners which I have returned, safe, well and healthy inside a live cage which was located a very considerable distance from their home.

 

Cats will always be a contentious subject. I fail to see why their legal staus allows them to defecate, destroy and annoy with impunity whilst dogs are quite rightly subject to a wide range of legislation covering exactly the same situations.

 

Perhaps a simple answer would be to amend the relevant laws to include the words "Domestic animals" instead of the word Dog.

 

That would be fair to everyone.

[halight]

We have two cats. Our roam free. There are quite a few cats in our street so they do tend to keep to the one or two gardens by there own house. Its very rear that you hear any cats fighting,

 

I also keep chickens. and I'm very great full to the cats In the street that do come into my garden. As well as my own cats. Together they keep my garden Rat free, And help keep any mice at bay. I don't see mice often but I know that they are there as I keep finding dead ones on my lawn. Three last week! and that's just the one that get left on my lawn.

[Robl]

Just for the sake of argument, assume for a moment that there were new laws on cats to make them all stay at home.

And, for the sake of argument, assume that people obeyed that law.

 

There would be a gap in the food chain that would need to be filled.

Would it be filled with foxes and wild cats. – or do you disagree?

Maybe urban mink and weasels would thrive.

(I recall there’s already a mink problem down south where some Peta nutjobs liberated a mink farm)

 

What then?

AFAIK it’s illegal to hunt foxes in an urban environment, so it’s likely the same laws will stand for wild cats.

These feral cats won’t have been neutered/spayed or have had any jabs, they will be manky poisonous little **** and they will spread.

They will also be hungry – they won’t be fed at home and then just snag the occasional frog and bird for fun – they will be properly hunting and scavenging for food.

 

I’m not saying that cat’s aren’t a problem for some people – but it’s a problem which needs a solution that works with the cats not against them.

It’s just like birds crapping on my car – I can’t possibly get rid of all the birds in the sky, so I need to find another solution.

[gamekeeper1960]

Thanks Guys some really great coments, I dont know there are definetive answer to all the question until there is maybe a change in the law, but I just think that its no good waiting until all our wild birds are on the at risk register before we do something about it, I also understand that people who own cat are very much against the law being changed because they would have to be more responsible for their animals, and its far easier just to let them out the door without a care as to what harm they are doing to the enviroment, but if owners of all other animals have to take resposibility then surelly there should be a change to the law so all pet owners are on a level playing field. and I dont see why owners cant keep cats in a purpose built cage and run which could even be added on to their home so they could have a cat flap so animals can go in and out without the need for their owners to change their live style, and they would be able to clean up after said animals, and not offend others with their mess. after all its what all responsible dog owners have to do,

[Robl]

You may be surprised that a lot of cat owners do have runs for their cats and don’t let them wander free.

We have both a run and a harness/lead for our so it can go outside without wandering off.

(a busy main road and some large wildlife in the fields mean I don’t want to risk him)

 

Do you have any opinions on my questions about what would happen if domestic cats were kept secured?

Would you expect controls in place for 'working' cats? Mousers and ratters for example used in stables and farms?

Do you think that other (wild) animals would move in to fill the niche?

If domesticated cats stopped crapping in gardens and killing birds but feral cats and foxes started getting involved would you consider they needed to be controlled, or would it just be the wonderous circle of life?

 

 

I know that cats do get wild birds, but there’s a good argument that says the birds caught by cats are mostly already injured or old, because any healthy bird can easily avoid a cat.

If they cat didn’t get them, then rats or foxes would.

 

I do agree that there’s a gap in the law that allows cat owners to not be legally obliged to remedy damage caused by their cats.

But, that damage could be caused by other animals too.

 

I’m reminded of a story from similar thread where a chap constantly complained about his neighbours cat damaging his garden ornaments.

There were all sorts of arguments and threats of cat killing.

Eventually a cctv was installed and the chap stopped posting about the cat. .. eventually he admitted that the CCTV had shown a fox doing the damage.

[guest1957]

In all of these threads no one has ever presented hard evidence of 'damage to the environment' resulting from cat ownership.

 

Given how quickly the RSPB jump on ways to protect birds at all costs it seems strange if even they say there is no evidence cats are leading to population decline: http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/gardening/unwantedvisitors/cats/birddeclines.aspx

 

All of these threads seem to be trying to justify getting rid of cats for 'environmental reasons' etc when really it is the case that the authors simply don't like cats.

 

 

 

 

[bavarianbrit]

In German law any cat straying more than 300m from a dwelling may at the hunters discretion be shot, as it has most likely gone feral.

Sorted.

Martin

[al4x]

all I can say is I hope I never encounter someone walking their cat on a lead while walking my dog. That would lead to a bit of an issue

 

and Martin thats the unwritten law round here as well

Edited August 29, 2012 by al4x

[gamekeeper1960]

Why does it seem to be that folks are trying to draw me into say that" I hate cat cats and they should all be shot " thats not true and even though I dont have any cats I dont say that no one else should, this is not the point of my thread ,I still say that there is no doubt that cats do kill a large number of birds every year and not all of those are old or infirm I have seen cats stalking young fledglings and they are not either of the above, as for some other animal filling in that part of the food chain, I dont hold by that at all what you are talking a bout is another wild animal ! well thats nature and so be it but cats in general are not wild animals and as such do upset the balance of nature and no one can deny that its true, And as for the guy who said that cats were damaging garden ornament well you should'nt accuse anyone without proof,and if you do then thats just stupid. And all I'm saying is please take responsibility for your animals and dont just pass the buck and say there is no problem to address.

[gamekeeper1960]

all I can say is I hope I never encounter someone walking their cat on a lead while walking my dog. That would lead to a bit of an issue

 

and Martin thats the unwritten law round here as well

 

The only problem I would have is people taking the law into their own hands there are ways of getting laws changed in this country please use them.

[gamekeeper1960]

In German law any cat straying more than 300m from a dwelling may at the hunters discretion be shot, as it has most likely gone feral.

Sorted.

Martin

 

Do you have to use a measure to make sure it over the 300 metres

[karpman]

 

 

Do you have to use a measure to make sure it over the 300 metres

 

You do seem to be avoiding any real discussion about facts and were your figures and the need for Muzzles come from.

 

Cats kill birds without a doubt are they the biggest deciding factor in dropping song bird numbers I doubt it.

 

Back up your need for further control on cats with hard facts, otherwise can't help thinking you just don't like them very much.

 

Karpman

[lord_seagrave]

Well reasoned discussion and acceptance of the views of others without recourse to insult and suggestions of illegal acts and 3 pages in to a thread on cats has to be a record.

 

Based on my own observations.

 

Cats are of little value in proper rodent control. Those farms with a plethora of ferals and semi-domestics tend also to be those over run with serious numbers of rodents.

The serious and growing rodent problem in urban and suburban areas is surely evidence of the inability of a generally well fed cat popualtion to control rodents effectively.

Cats have a strange legal status in that the owner is not legaly liable for the destructive actions of their animals but their animals do have legal status as property with no exceptions or defence against a claim of criminal damage by owners of property or livestock who may take steps to prevent damage by them resulting in death or injury to the cat.

 

I have posted before regarding the cats "who never go far" according to their owners which I have returned, safe, well and healthy inside a live cage which was located a very considerable distance from their home.

 

Cats will always be a contentious subject. I fail to see why their legal staus allows them to defecate, destroy and annoy with impunity whilst dogs are quite rightly subject to a wide range of legislation covering exactly the same situations.

 

Perhaps a simple answer would be to amend the relevant laws to include the words "Domestic animals" instead of the word Dog.

 

That would be fair to everyone.

 

This.

 

LS

[Robl]

Fair enough.

There’s a general agreement that there’s a bit of a problem.

 

Can anyone suggest a reasonable solution that might actually make it to law?

 

How about a change so that a cat owner could be prosecuted for damage if it could be proved it was the cats fault?

How about if it went the other way and any cat outside a house would be considered a wild animal and treated as such? (whatever that means)

Should we increase the level of preventative measures a home owner could use to protect their garden from cats and other animals?

Should cats require a licence or a chip? How would that help.

[gamekeeper1960]

You do seem to be avoiding any real discussion about facts and were your figures and the need for Muzzles come from.

 

Cats kill birds without a doubt are they the biggest deciding factor in dropping song bird numbers I doubt it.

 

Back up your need for further control on cats with hard facts, otherwise can't help thinking you just don't like them very much.

 

Karpman

 

Think what you may of me I really dont care. But the fact is that our bird life is on the decrease ! and if owners allow their cats predate on them has got to be a bad thing ! I'm not saying that there are'nt other contribiting factors to their demise. but at least if we start with something that people should have control over its got to help

[Reece]

I know that cats do get wild birds, but there’s a good argument that says the birds caught by cats are mostly already injured or old, because any healthy bird can easily avoid a cat.

If they cat didn’t get them, then rats or foxes would.

 

With wild predators maybe (maybe not), but not with cats. They are fed by humans, and are strong enough to take large numbers of healthy birds, not just the unhealthy ones.

 

Also, what about dormice?

 

In all of these threads no one has ever presented hard evidence of 'damage to the environment' resulting from cat ownership.

 

Given how quickly the RSPB jump on ways to protect birds at all costs it seems strange if even they say there is no evidence cats are leading to population decline: http://www.rspb.org....rddeclines.aspx

 

All of these threads seem to be trying to justify getting rid of cats for 'environmental reasons' etc when really it is the case that the authors simply don't like cats.

 

Common sense and observation is enough to convince most people, including me, that cats are damaging to wild birds. It may be anecdotal evidence but that is still evidence, and when there is a lot of it, it is evidence that cannot be ignored.

 

People say the same about grey squirrels and bird numbers, but recently, the GWCT did a study which showed that grey squirrels do harm woodland birds. Maybe it's time they did a study on cats?

 

 

And can we please get away from this mentality of "kill em all"? It does not help our case, and there are probably anti shooters watching these forums.

[karpman]

With wild predators maybe (maybe not), but not with cats. They are fed by humans, and are strong enough to take large numbers of healthy birds, not just the unhealthy ones.

 

Also, what about dormice?

 

 

 

Common sense and observation is enough to convince most people, including me, that cats are damaging to wild birds. It may be anecdotal evidence but that is still evidence, and when there is a lot of it, it is evidence that cannot be ignored.

 

People say the same about grey squirrels and bird numbers, but recently, the GWCT did a study which showed that grey squirrels do harm woodland birds. Maybe it's time they did a study on cats?

 

 

And can we please get away from this mentality of "kill em all"? It does not help our case, and there are probably anti shooters watching these forums.

 

Very good point indeed, looking from a different perspective as your self and quite enjoying a bit of discussion. I offer this up to the table.

 

I would assume and by my observations, Cats generally predate gardens and within say 100m of there surrounding area. I shoot a lot and rarley do I see a Cat actively hunting in the fields. With the exception of a few instances i would expect cats to predate the more common of our songbirds of whom are in little danger of vanishing. Blackbirds, Blue tits etc.

 

Most of dwindling song bird numbers and studys take into account the rapidly vanishing Tree sparrows, Corn Buntings amongest other farmaland and arable species, Thus concluding that modern day farming techqniques are largely to blame for loss of habitat feeding and breeding areas.

 

House sparrows suffered a similar fate due to modern building and renovation of houses, Starling numbers are still up for disscusion.

 

karpman

[gamekeeper1960]

Very good point indeed, looking from a different perspective as your self and quite enjoying a bit of discussion. I offer this up to the table.

 

I would assume and by my observations, Cats generally predate gardens and within say 100m of there surrounding area. I shoot a lot and rarley do I see a Cat actively hunting in the fields. With the exception of a few instances i would expect cats to predate the more common of our songbirds of whom are in little danger of vanishing. Blackbirds, Blue tits etc.

 

Most of dwindling song bird numbers and studys take into account the rapidly vanishing Tree sparrows, Corn Buntings amongest other farmaland and arable species, Thus concluding that modern day farming techqniques are largely to blame for loss of habitat feeding and breeding areas.

 

House sparrows suffered a similar fate due to modern building and renovation of houses, Starling numbers are still up for disscusion.

 

karpman

 

I have no doubt you are right about modern building practise/ renovation and modern farming practises ,when i was a lad growing up on a farm there were lots of small farms and small holding in my village where as there are now just two big farms, and now farmers yards and barns are ultra clean with fitting doors and roofs that are a single thickness so no where for them nest so its not a place for much wildlife anymore and whos to blame for this I'm sure is food for another thread !

Edited August 29, 2012 by gamekeeper1960