Catweazle Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Maybe we are hardwired for it rather than the other way round? I don't see why not, I already wrote that it could be an evolutionary advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Although we will argue about the nature of God, I really don't think we can claim God doesn't exist or is in the same league as Mystic Meg. Why can we not claim god doesn't exist? I will concede that Meg is not in the same league..she NEVER gave me the right lottery numbers, the daft old witch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 That is a different argument Henry. I wasn't entering the does he/doesn't he debate, just pointing out that popularlarity does not prove anything. There are many that do spend every waking minute looking for the truth in science, and in other religions. Their dedication to the cause alone does not mean they are right. The point is that if someone tells you that God speaks to him who are you ( or anybody ) to say he's wrong ? Unless you're inside his head you don't know what's going on there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Why can we not claim god doesn't exist? Because it might exist inside someones head, or inside many millions of peoples heads, just like Love or Fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 The point is that if someone tells you that God speaks to him who are you ( or anybody ) to say he's wrong ? Unless you're inside his head you don't know what's going on there. I understand what you are saying but in Critical Thinking this is another logical fallacy - "Burden Of Proof" Bertrand Russell claimed that there is a teapot that orbits the sun and challenged anyone to prove him wrong. Actually he didn't really believe this, but his point was that shifting the burden of proof to anyone that said this was nonsense is ridiculous, and the fact that they cannot prove him wrong does not make it a fact. As Carl Sagan said...extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Why can we not claim god doesn't exist? No proof, same as I cannot prove he exists and I am cool with that. I cannot prove he does not exist, same as you, but my difference is every fibre of my body, every subatomic particle screams out that he exists and the more I find out about him the deeper this feeling is, the more tangible his being is to me, I cannot deny this fact it is that simple and so totally irrational. No I do not see little pink elephants or hear voices, that would be just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 The problem with agnosticism is it is not a belief system and so you cannot argue from any stand point on a belief system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonblasterian Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Another load of tosh thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 No proof, same as I cannot prove he exists and I am cool with that. I cannot prove he does not exist, same as you, but my difference is every fibre of my body, every subatomic particle screams out that he exists and the more I find out about him the deeper this feeling is, the more tangible his being is to me, I cannot deny this fact it is that simple and so totally irrational. No I do not see little pink elephants or hear voices, that would be just silly. I have absolutely no doubt that you genuinely feel the way you say you do, and would never criticise or ridicule that. In much the same way I am genuinely convinced of the complete opposite. The fact that we can disagree so completely, and yet neither of us feel the urge to hunt the other down and murder them, cheers me up no end. Which brings us to morality...I feel another thread coming on But not tonight Night all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloke Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) Henry D, I respect your spirit of debate. I may, or then again I may not agree with you - BUT - I would never dismiss a person's beliefs. Without beliefs, where are we? For those out there with a few rascal glasses under the belt, yes, I deliberately said belief, not faith. If you Henry have your beliefs, so be it - I have my own beliefs- in the same way as the Sikh gentleman I shot clays with the other day - he has his beliefs too, in the same way as the Muslim surgeon who operated on me to remove the cancer, he has his beliefs too... When I started Nurse training, we were always told the two things we should NEVER discuss with patients were Politics or Religion. Thankfully we have moved on a bit by now. However, as we have seen on this forum in the last few days, there are still people who wish to impose their beliefs on others, forever banging their drum for and against each other's beliefs. That's fine when it stays a friendly debate, with of course the usual light-hearted mickey-taking, but how often does it have to descend into acrimonious slanging matches before people realise that others do not have to always agree or fight - there are always other choices We, as a group of shooters are frequently ranting in these pages about how we should not be judged by the actions of a few idiots and madmen -Ryan, Moat and Bird, for example. Yet how do we see people making comments on these boards about how all (?) religious people are nutters, or all followers of Islam are terrorists or extremists, or all vegetarians are pacifist bunny huggers etc, etc,etc , when the contradictory evidence is all around us? Anyone on here is welcome to any belief they wish, as long as they do not believe in hurting or robbing people. I will assume they put these opinions on the board to invite comment, but let's try and comment respectfully, not just slag people off. All the best out there..... Edited September 22, 2012 by Bloke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 I understand what you are saying but in Critical Thinking this is another logical fallacy - "Burden Of Proof" Bertrand Russell claimed that there is a teapot that orbits the sun and challenged anyone to prove him wrong. Actually he didn't really believe this, but his point was that shifting the burden of proof to anyone that said this was nonsense is ridiculous, and the fact that they cannot prove him wrong does not make it a fact. As Carl Sagan said...extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence... If 10 million people tell you that God exists in their mind and another 100 million tell you he doesn't exist in theirs is it logical to conclude that the 10 million are lying ? Or is it logical to conclude that God only exists in the 10 million, consider that the 100 million have absolutely no knowledge of what's inside the 10 million minds. I'm not arguing that God exists anywhere except in mens minds, don't confuse me with someone who thinks of God as a supernatural being, but even in mens minds it can be a powerful force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Another load of tosh thread. Many thanks on your input, I have a lot to think about and may have to acquiesce to your greater knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) Too tired to get into this right now... But... Whether we are truly the offspring of pure coincidence or have evolved by design (which then creates more questions than answers although I don't discount this possibility.... That is not the same as believing in god nor does it have anything to do with religion) is not in question. The problem I have with religion is simply that most faiths base themselves on texts of dubious origin written millennia ago. Christianity stems from the bible.. The Old Testament is widlely accepted as being more akin to fables and fairy tales and uses stories to instill a since of morality... No-one, not even theologians would argue that the OT is anything but that.. The only exception being the creationists who, lets face it, are a bunch of raving loonies anyŵay! The true origin of the New Testament is actually not clear. Most of it was written quite some time after the person (real or not) named Christ had diedi.. We are talking centuries in some cases, so, even if the stories we true, they would have been stories told to sons who told thier sons etc, etc, ever played Chinese whispers? These texts were also written when, man quite frankly had no clue about his environment and had no knowledge of well... Anything... Everything 2,000 years ago was magic or witchcraft! Combine that with the Chinese whispers phenomenon down the generations and the sone of god is born... Month python's life of Brian is actually a VERY good lesson in how this kind of thing happens. Can we all agree that the Scientologists are nutters? Or at best a little odd... After all they believe that we were planted here by aliens and believe in the teachings of a 20th century scifi writer....... Hang on....... So, the scientologists are perhaps a spanner short of a full toolbox and yet, Christians and the rest are all compus menus because the book they take thier faith from is 2,000 years old. Hmmm that makes perfect sense then doesn't it! If Christ turned up now (as the bible says he will) he would be locked up in a mental hospital.. Not even the church would accept him as real! Modern Christianity didn't actually show up until 450 years after JC and was actually voted in by committee! (Heres a time line for you http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blchron_xian_index.htm ) Bit like modern Father Christmas being invented in the 40s by Coca-cola... And the Catholic Church as we know it was quite some time after that.. The Catholic Church was then built on lies, theft, fear and death.. It was racketeering at it's very best... Convince the rich and powerful that thier soul is in peril and they will give you whatever you want... A trip to Vatican City (been there many times, awesome place) will quickly convince you of that. most if not all of the other western churches are simply offshoots from Catholicism. My point with all this (and sorry if it isn't coherent but typing in bed on iPad and knackered!) is that whilst every man is entitled to his own faith I cannot get my head round why any intelligent human of the 21st century would blindly follow the teachings of a book (probably fictional) 2,000 years old!? It really does beggar belief... The answer to the question of 'why do we need religion' is quite simple... Most human beings can't cope with the fact that this is it! They need to believe that there must be 'something more' to Make life bearable and have some meaning for them. They need hope, without hope, the is no point! Edited September 21, 2012 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Too tired to get into this right now... But... Whether we are truly the offspring of pure coincidence or have evolved by design (which then creates more questions than answers although I don't discount this possibility.... That is not the same as believing in god nor does it have anything to do with religion) is not in question. The problem I have with religion is simply that most faiths base themselves on texts of dubious origin written millennia ago. Christianity stems from the bible.. The Old Testament is widlely accepted as being more akin to fables and fairy tales and uses stories to instill a since of morality... No-one, not even theologians would argue that the OT is anything but that..Must remember to ask the principle to sack a few Doctors, cause they didn`t tell us that. The only exception being the creationists who, lets face it, are a bunch of raving loonies anyŵay! The true origin of the New Testament is actually not clear. Most of it was written quite some time after the person (real or not) named Christ had diedi.. We are talking centuries in some cases(Woop woop rubbish alert), so, even if the stories we true, they would have been stories told to sons who told thier sons etc, etc, ever played Chinese whispers? (So how come thirteen year olds and younger could repeat the first five books of the bible verbatim then? As for copying them they had many scribes who would copy and many who would proof read, not just reading but some would start at the begining and others at the end, others still started at the middle and worked one way others the other way and if even one dot, an iota was missing the whole text was burned) These texts were also written when, man quite frankly had no clue about his environment and had no knowledge of well... Anything...That would have made building the pyramids hard then wouldn`t it? Everything 2,000 years ago was magic or witchcraft! Combine that with the Chinese whispers phenomenon down the generations and the sone of god is born... Month python's life of Brian is actually a VERY good lesson in how this kind of thing happens. No it is a parody designed to get MP into the media. Can we all agree that the Scientologists are nutters? Or at best a little odd... After all they believe that we were planted here by aliens and believe in the teachings of a 20th century scifi writer....... Hang on....... So, the scientologists are perhaps a spanner short of a full toolbox and yet, Christians and the rest are all compus menus because the book they take thier faith from is 2,000 years old. Hmmm that makes perfect sense then doesn't it! If Christ turned up now (as the bible says he will) he would be locked up in a mental hospital.. Not even the church would accept him as real! Modern Christianity didn't actually show up until 450 years after JC and was actually voted in by committee! depends on your interpretation of "Modern Christianity" (Heres a time line for you http://atheism.about..._xian_index.htm Not loaded at all ) Bit like modern Father Christmas being invented in the 40s by Coca-cola... And the Catholic Church as we know it was quite some time after that.. The Catholic Church was then built on lies, theft, fear and death.. It was racketeering at it's very best... Convince the rich and powerful that thier soul is in peril and they will give you whatever you want... A trip to Vatican City (been there many times, awesome place) will quickly convince you of that. most if not all of the other western churches are simply offshoots from Catholicism. My point with all this (and sorry if it isn't coherent but typing in bed on iPad and knackered!) is that whilst every man is entitled to his own faith I cannot get my head round why any intelligent human of the 21st century would blindly follow the teachings of a book (probably fictional) 2,000 years old!? It really does beggar belief... See above The answer to the question of 'why do we need religion' is quite simple... Most human beings can't cope with the fact that this is it! They need to believe that there must be 'something more' to Make life bearable and have some meaning for them. They need hope, without hope, the is no point! Sorry I don`t agree, if that was the case I would have been a christian somewhere around the time I was in the South Atlantic trying, along with the rest of the crew, to stop the ship from sinking while still being attacked, or when I watched people dying in front of me in car crashes, or when a friend was killed saving someones life. No I came to christianity because I was living a lie thinking I knew better than those pompous christians, when the fact of the matter was I did not know a thing about the bible, religion or anything relating to spirituality, much like many people who have posted recently. The lack of knowledge is appalling when you see what people post as knowledge and that is why I started this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
station Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 It looks like one of my English essays back when I was 15 ! Why can't we all just get along - imagine if we Christians had all taken offence to Monty Python ! Remember those immortal words - "He's not the messiah, he's just a very naughty boy" ATB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Considering where we posting - isnt this a little out of place? There must be loads of sites where those who are religeous can discuss to their hearts content. Its time for the 'off' switch. Nothing dries my mouth more than evangelical chat - sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 The problem with agnosticism is it is not a belief system and so you cannot argue from any stand point on a belief system. Isn't that the point of being agnostic? That they don't WANT to argue from any standpoint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Henry... you are starting to remind me of the creationists... They are convinced God created the earth 10k years ago... ahhh.. so explain why we can carbon date dinosour bones and other fossils to millions of years? That's God's way of testing my faith! Brainwashing, nothing else... As for your last paragraph... I type this having spent most of my life surrounded by religion and religious teaching... I didn't suddenly 'find it' I realised, after many years of having it rammed down my throat, that it was utter hogwash... I don't care how many 'doctors' you have sat down and 'prayed' with or been 'preached' to by.... go to Rome, spend a few weeks 'studying' at the Vatican (not just wandering round) and you will start to see things in a different light. Everything stems from there.. I'm not knocking your beliefs and I'm not knocking you Henry but if you truly believe that Moses went into the mountains to be presented with some stone tablets and that God really created the world in 6 days as the OT tells us... you must be very, very gullable.. (by the way... at the time this was written, they also thought the earth was flat and if you got too close to the edge you would fall off, thunder and lightning was God showing his wrath and that the earth was at the centre of the heavens.... please also remember that up to only a few hundred years ago if anyone did something that couldn't be explained at that time, they were burnt at the stake as witches and even more recently that the human body would disintigrate if it traveled at more than 30MPH) Even the venarable Dawkins is happy to admit that he cannot be sure God doesn't exist, why is it with any religious militant (and most are) that alternative, up to date and far more sensible views are vilified and argued with...you don't tend to find non-believers standing in the street banging on about atheism or knocking on peoples doors like double glazing salesmen trying to sell an afterlife of paradise.. If you are happy to take some rediculously ancient text (I'll say it again... probably a fictional work of VERY dubious origin designed to install a moral compass into the citizens when there was no state run framework ) and believe it pretty much chapter and verse then, good on you and I won't critiscise your wonderful ability to suspend reality in order to worship some mythical being (without proof, that's all JC can be... mythical... he can be no more real than Hydra or Zeuss or Thor.) Come tho think of it... why isn't Zeuss worshipped nowadays... what evidence is there that God exists but Zeuss doesn't? Anyhoo... I really detest religion, it is emotive and serves to do nothing but polarise opinion at such a base level that it just leaves hate, death and destruction in it's wake..... then, now, on a small scale, on a large scale... it is devisive, insidious, deadly and should have absolutely no place in modern civilisation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) The thing is Henry d,while you castigate others for their lack of knowledge, to the point of ridicule in some cases 'woop woop,rubbish alert',ALL of your entire knowledge on the subject has derived from the writings of others,and none of it gained from personal experience nor common sense.You have chosen to suspend your rational thought and logic which evolution has spent thousands of years developing. When Darwin first mooted his Origin of Species theory,it was the possibility that it could mean there was no order to things which initially caused furore.There was no 'bigger scheme' of things,and that it was all tooth and claw and an untimely,messy ending. If you believe god is responsible for everything,logic(unsuspended briefly!)dictates that not only is he responsible for the sunrise,he is responsible for disease.I just don't follow the reasoning behind it at all. Coming to terms with ones own mortality is scary beyond belief.When in bed at night,in the dark,quiet silence,think about it,really really think about it;lying in the soil forever,for all eternity,up to and beyond the end of time.Never seeing your loved ones ever again.I'll guarantee that if you don't put the light back on for a while,you at least turn over before getting to sleep.Is it any wonder that people will and do turn to any thing which will give them some form of 'hope'?Is it any wonder people who are otherwise non-believers will turn to prayer in times of need?Being the hypocrate I am I've even tried it myself in the past,on my knees,and as a form of positive thinking it can work wonders,but as a solution to a problem;'it's in gods hands',is a complete waste of time. It isn't hard to imagine why religious leaders would violently oppose any disbelief,belief for them was/is,their only 'hope';and once you've gone down this route it follows reason that the more people who believe,the more substance is given to the 'hope',and before long it is dictated as fact. Knowledge is a grand thing,without it we would no doubt be sacrificing some poor maiden now in light of last nights meteor showers. Common sense tells me he(why he,not she?enormous clue there me thinks!)doesn't exist,a common sense you use on a daily basis,that you have,on this particular topic,chosen to suspend, I was indoctrinated into Christianity via the C of E,when my dear old Mam would drag my sister and me off to church each Sunday for Sunday school meetings,where we would learn all about the baby Jesus and what we would later come to regard as the immaculate conception(!)and how god created 'all things bright and beautiful',and be given Ladybird books about Jesus and the disciples for good attendance! If he did in fact create 'all things bright and beautiful' who created all things dark and sinister,or was this the work of satan?And why have we seemingly been abandoned,left to our own devices in a downwardly revolving self-destruct spiral? I would dearly love a giant finger to point down at us from the sky and say;'HEY...GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER,OR ELSE!'It aint gonna happen. You may regard my outlook as bleak,at best,but it isnt really.I have no doubt it is on a par with your own.Because I KNOW without doubt,that this is it,I have no time to waste on being selfish with my time nor money(which is why I'll never have any of either;I tend to give it away to those I love and care for)I have no time doing wrong deeds;we're only here for a limited amount of time,why on earth would I want to spend what little time I have in jail?Which is why it saddens me to see all the wars,the killings,the murders,and the selfishness,bigoted,narrow-minded acts and greed which dominates our lives on a global scale. I don't resent you your beliefs henry,but as the obviously intelligent person you are,they simply baffle the hell out of me. It has taken me so long to type this(pressed return and deleted entire post!) that I didn't see Vipas post until I posted this.He is far more articulate than me and subsequently has said more or less what I would have liked to have said! Edited September 22, 2012 by Scully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) The thing is Henry d,while you castigate others for their lack of knowledge, to the point of ridicule in some cases 'woop woop,rubbish alert',ALL of your entire knowledge on the subject has derived from the writings of others,and none of it gained from personal experience nor common sense.You have chosen to suspend your rational thought and logic which evolution has spent thousands of years developing. When Darwin first mooted his Origin of Species theory,it was the possibility that it could mean there was no order to things which initially caused furore.There was no 'bigger scheme' of things,and that it was all tooth and claw and an untimely,messy ending. If you believe god is responsible for everything,logic(unsuspended briefly!)dictates that not only is he responsible for the sunrise,he is responsible for disease.I just don't follow the reasoning behind it at all. Coming to terms with ones own mortality is scary beyond belief.When in bed at night,in the dark,quiet silence,think about it,really really think about it;lying in the soil forever,for all eternity,up to and beyond the end of time.Never seeing your loved ones ever again.I'll guarantee that if you don't put the light back on for a while,you at least turn over before getting to sleep.Is it any wonder that people will and do turn to any thing which will give them some form of 'hope'?Is it any wonder people who are otherwise non-believers will turn to prayer in times of need?Being the hypocrate I am I've even tried it myself in the past,on my knees,and as a form of positive thinking it can work wonders,but as a solution to a problem;'it's in gods hands',is a complete waste of time. It isn't hard to imagine why religious leaders would violently oppose any disbelief,belief for them was/is,their only 'hope';and once you've gone down this route it follows reason that the more people who believe,the more substance is given to the 'hope',and before long it is dictated as fact. Knowledge is a grand thing,without it we would no doubt be sacrificing some poor maiden now in light of last nights meteor showers. Common sense tells me he(why he,not she?enormous clue there me thinks!)doesn't exist,a common sense you use on a daily basis,that you have,on this particular topic,chosen to suspend, I was indoctrinated into Christianity via the C of E,when my dear old Mam would drag my sister and me off to church each Sunday for Sunday school meetings,where we would learn all about the baby Jesus and what we would later come to regard as the immaculate conception(!)and how god created 'all things bright and beautiful',and be given Ladybird books about Jesus and the disciples for good attendance! If he did in fact create 'all things bright and beautiful' who created all things dark and sinister,or was this the work of satan?And why have we seemingly been abandoned,left to our own devices in a downwardly revolving self-destruct spiral? I would dearly love a giant finger to point down at us from the sky and say;'HEY...GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER,OR ELSE!'It aint gonna happen. You may regard my outlook as bleak,at best,but it isnt really.I have no doubt it is on a par with your own.Because I KNOW without doubt,that this is it,I have no time to waste on being selfish with my time nor money(which is why I'll never have any of either;I tend to give it away to those I love and care for)I have no time doing wrong deeds;we're only here for a limited amount of time,why on earth would I want to spend what little time I have in jail?Which is why it saddens me to see all the wars,the killings,the murders,and the selfishness,bigoted,narrow-minded acts and greed which dominates our lives on a global scale. I don't resent you your beliefs henry,but as the obviously intelligent person you are,they simply baffle the hell out of me. It has taken me so long to type this(pressed return and deleted entire post!) that I didn't see Vipas post until I posted this.He is far more articulate than me and subsequently has said more or less what I would have liked to have said! I was about to say the same about yours Scully! The main problem with religion is that, from a stupidly early age, it is forced upon childeren that it is true.... real.... with absolutely no counter argument or exporation of the possibility that........... it isn't! I wish everyone would watch or read Dawkins, The God Delusion... (the TV documentary was titled 'the root of all evil?') not because I believe his views more than those of the faithful (although his do have slightly more logic to them!) but to give a balance.. my wife flatly refuses to watch it... I can't for the life of me work out why well I can actually.... it's because she knows deep down that it will sow some seeds of doubt and, for a faith built on milinnia old heresay, that spells disaster, so, she would rather bury her head and not have her 'faith' challenged. I find this is the same with most religious types... in our house, I am not allowed to air my views, particularly in front of the kids... so, as is most always the case, there is no counter argument or alternative 'possibility.' I had a slight falling out with her over RE lessons at school... I pointed out that there was no counter argument to be told that 'yes there is.. they learn about Muslims and Sikhs etc...' no... they should also be offered the possibility that there is no god and this is it! but it will never happen will it. Henry, you use the argument that your faith and belief has developed recently and not years ago when it should... I challenge that in fact, the 'brainwashing' (for want of a better word) aspect of the whole thing actually occurred during your most formative and impressionable years... infant/junior school, you know... the same age when you were told that Santa was real and you just accepted that as being true... if no one had told you a bit later that he wasn't then it would be relatively easy for a movement to perpetuate the illusion... Those thoughts implanted in childhood lay dormant but don't disappear... only to be brought to the surface by some coming together of personal circumstances, chance meetings etc.. and you start to ask questions... questions based on the 'facts' you were told were true when you were 5, 6, 7, 8.. As I have stated earlier... I am non religious, which isn't the same as falling into any bracket created by the faithful for the non-faithful, however, The God Delusion should be required reading or watching in all schools.. Can't find a working linky.. or anything on youtube.. if anyone has one, bang it up on here.... have found 'Enemies of Reason' on youtube though... worth a watch but not in the same league as TGD Edited September 22, 2012 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
station Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Burn the non believers ! What's everyone doing for Christmas - not long now ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Burn the non believers ! What's everyone doing for Christmas - not long now ! NOT... waiting up to watch NORAD tracking Santa again... don't need to, I know he's real and have faith that he will pay us a visit and lay pressies at the foot of the tree.. HO HO HO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 NOT... waiting up to watch NORAD tracking Santa again... don't need to, I know he's real and have faith that he will pay us a visit and lay pressies at the foot of the tree.. HO HO HO! praise be the lord for santa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 @ Scully & Vipa. Those are exactly the sorts of debate i wanted to bring forward, however what you have done is only brought your own experiences of "church". They are as distorted as the minds of the fools who flew into the WTC. Along with that are the broad brush strokes that are used by many here, if I called you Thomas Hamilton I would expect you to be offended, I know I would be, yet people tell me that religion is this or that without finding out about it. That is why I likened it to reloading, if I just got the gear and rammed a primer in an empty case filled it with some cheap powder and bullet on top and go out to fire the round...... that is not how we go about things. I`ve read Hitchens, Grayling and Dawkins et al and I`ve sat in the seat of a deluded and ignorant atheist and mocked those who knew more than I and I`ve lay in the dark trying to make sense of it all. All these experiences add up to more than the religious subliminal messages (if thats what you mean) I may have come across. I went to a blessing for a friends child, not a christening, and apart from a few weddings that would have been the first time I have been in a church service since 1975ish when I was in my teens (and that was incomprehensible as it was a RC christening) what struck me was that I had done these people a huge disservice by thinking I knew all about them from a few RE lessons, a couple of church services and a whole load of ******** from parents, friends and the media. By all means call it rubbish and indoctrinal and a huge waste of time and effort, just do it from a balanced viewpoint. Go back through your posts and look for the times when you have made a statement that could be just a broad brush stroke, otherwise we are all just murdering, gun crazy rednecks who get a kick out of killing for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Henry... Show me the proof that you are right and Dawkins is wrong.. Tell me (honestly) that when you were 6 and your parents, peers and didaskalos' told you Santa was real, that you questioned them or, did you like all other kids just accept it as real and true.... Apply the same as above to being told we all goto heaven when we die and that'd Jesus existed (in the religious sense not the physical sense, I have no issue with the probability that a bloke called Jesus existed and that his dad was called Joseph) and that god and the holy trinity actually exist.. These weren't subliminal messages Henry... These were messages taught in school just like maths and English... At the age they are taught there is little chance of ever being able to rationally Crete an argument in your own head that they don't.. A bit like puppies... 13 weeks is key... Anything introduced prior to 13 weeks tends to be accepted and sticks with the dog into adulthood... After that, it is often difficult to alter perceptions... I am cetainly not deluded nor ignorant.. I am just not gullible... Broad brush strokes... Damned right.... It doesn't matter if you are at the benign end or the militant end.. It all comes from the same place and does not come from enlightened rational thought, it comes effectively from mob mentality.. And the evangelical 'need' to preach and convert. I sometimes wonder if it is a case of 'if I can convince others of my beliefs then that will affirm my beliefs to me!' I love Dawkins observation.... If you we're absolutely sure you were Napoleon, your beliefs would need some serious shoring up with proof and evidence because you can be sure that few, if any, others would believe you were indeed Napoleon. But, when you have a very large group all covinving each other that they are right, proof and evidence are no longer needed..... in other words, all these people say it's true, therefore it must be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts