People saying they will use shotgun to defend themselves

[JonathanL]

After the last arrests re shooting a burgler and people saying they wouldnt think twice in using there shotgun got me thinking.

 

Personally i would find it very very hard to make the decision to actually shoot someone but maby under rage it would be easier.

 

So my question is, would it be easier to have some blank cartridges to fire as the way i see it the noise and flash but be enought to make prob 90% of burglers to run ok there is always a exception but surly a couple of blanks shot off would be safer and easier.

 

Can you buy blank 12 gauge cartridges ?

 

J

 

Not really a question of 'rage' but rather desperation or a sense of self preservation. If you argued that you shot someone because you were enraged then you would be sent down in very short order.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

I wonder how the courts would view use of a blank ( still potentially lethal )

 

The only defence you have to using a firearm under any circumstance is that you had a genuinely held belief that you or another were in immediate danger of serious injury or death.

 

The use of a firearm against anyone under any other circumstances circumstances will see you convicted of something.

 

J.

Edited December 28, 2012 by JonathanL

[JonathanL]

I've heard of it, but thought it was an urban myth. Sounds nasty though.

 

It most probably an urban myth. Basic common sense tells you that rock salt will have a very, very limited range. Also, why would game keepers regularly walk about with such loads? If they were caught with them it would be a certain conviction for carrying an offensive weapon (or somesuch) as there is no legitimate use for it.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

If you have time to get out of bed, fetch the keys, open the safe and then load the gun before challenging the burglars and they are still there waiting I would be surprised. Much easier to dial 999 and tell plod there is someone in your house and they will come round quick as a flash, plod love those calls as they are as rare as rocking horse **** and will result in half the station turning out.

When you put the phone down I would turn on the lights and make some noise, then worry about something close to hand like a cricket bat or whatever. I wouldn't recommend challenging the burglars as you don't know who they are, what they have, how many there are, what they have taken, etc etc etc, just look after wifey,and the kids, no need to get killed with your own kitchen knife Or have your gun taken from you when you find you can't pull the trigger or didn't see his mate behind u.

If however u happened to be cleaning your trusty pump action at 3am after a late night shoot, well as the judge Said, its there problem and the Chance they take....

 

All of which is MASSIVELY easy to say from the comfort of your sofa when wide awake and in a state of mind to think things through. Very difficult conclusions to come to when having been woken from a deep sleep at stupid o'clock in the morning with a couple of masked ***** types in your bedroom raising all hell.

 

J.

 

Still amazes me the amount of input people will respond to these topics , so what does that tell you about defending yourself and family in our homes .

 

What does it tell you?

 

J.

[JonathanL]

I agree saying i wouldnt think twice and actually doing it are totally different, and to be honest id rather fire a couple of blank shots to scare them off and worst case if they attempt to come up i then have to make the decision to either use a live round or use the gun as a bat.

 

BUT id like to think the blank going of would rid all but the most hardend burgler.

 

Also then no ( or less ) issues with police

 

J

 

What happens when you 'accidentlly' kill them with the wad from the blank round? The argument will be rightly made that you were firing the blank round merely in order to scare them off but by doing so you were endangering their life. You have no authority in law to do that. You have no right in law to endanger someone who you do not reasonebly believe is causing you an immediate danger.

 

Never, ever, use firearms, in any way, against anyone unless you have a genuine belief that you or someone else is in immediate danger of serious injury or death. If you do otherwise you will probably end up locked up for a very long time.

 

J.

[Will Poon]

Hi j, my ipad has just pinged at me , so you either have noting to watch on telly or want to stirr things on this topic ,I can't remember exactly what I've written on these topics but just the other day my house alarm went off in the early hours of the morning I only woke up because my wife was nudging me to wake up , as I did and in a daze grabbed my baseball bat and ran down stairs to my dog wagging her tail at me....there is not a cat in hells chance anyone can get there cabinet keys go to the cabinet move all the **** infront of it undo the locks grab a gun THEN get a box of cartridges that are sealed top and bottom get some cartridges out then proceed down stairs the burglars would be out the house before you know it,

[JonathanL]

I think the majority of scrotes won't hang about to see if it was a blank or not, they've been rumbled, Plod is en route and they will normally leg it. However if they keep coming then you know you have serious trouble on your hands, they know there is a gun and they don't care.

While it is an extremely unlikely scenario for almost everyone on here, if you do go down the route of using a gun do two things. Make sure you get them first, and only have 2 cartridges available and make sure YOU fire both of them if plan A goes wrong.

 

In the real world if you decide to take any form of weapon in to an "adversarial confrontation" be 100% certain you can use it, have the determination to do so and the resolve to fully carry out the task and retain the weapon. Otherwise expect to be on the receiving end yourself.

 

There are enough cases of people defending their homes with "normal" items becoming victims of them to make you think whether you really want to make a gun and ammunition available to a determined attacker.

 

The main thing to remember is that all of it is extremely unlikely to happen.

 

As regards to rock salt cartridges, yes they were real, yes they work and some sadistic old schoolers even went to the extra effort of making them more effective by wrapping the stuff in tiny bits of tinfoil for added abrasion. One water baillif I met went a step further and loaded them with Mallachite Green crystals, used properly to treat fungal infection of stew trout, as he heard it was carcinogenic. "If it don't stop 'em today it'll stop 'em for good later". He was a nice bloke if you were on his side.

 

But clearly a complete and utter psychopath who should never be let near a firearm!

 

On your other points, I generally agree. There is this perception that carring a firearm, for personal protection reasons, is done by people who are a bit unstanble and just itching to use them. However, the people spounting this rubbish are invariably people who don't do it, have never done it, and have usually never even used a firearm.

 

I used to visit a gun shop in Arizona a few years back and, as with all gun shops there, the staff always openly carried. One of the guys there told me that he would use his gun against someone who was making threats of violence against people but not if it was only to defend some replaceable property. In relation to using it against robbers who only wanted money his words were, "'I'm not going to shoot someone over a couple of hundred dollars of someone elses money!". This from a person living on a place where he could quite lawfully shoot someone for that very reason and would probably get a civic award for it.

 

The point being that actually having the means about you to do such things often makes you less likely to do it. It's very easy to say you'd do something when you know that you will never, ever, have the opportunity to do it! Lots of people in the UK will happily tell you that allowing people to carry guns will result in a lot of people turning into homicidal maniacs. However, they have never done it, and have no experience of it on which to base that statement, nor will never be expected to be asked to try it so they can say whatever they like.

 

I've carried firearms in the US (legally, I would add) and it makes you very, aware of the consequenses of what using one will bring. The very, very last thing you want is a confrontation which might put you in the position of actually having to use it which makes any confrontation even less likely. Like I said, it's very easy to say that you'd kill someone at the drop of a hat when you know you haven't the ability to do it - very different thing when you can actually do it.

[TJ91]

 

 

It most probably an urban myth. Basic common sense tells you that rock salt will have a very, very limited range. Also, why would game keepers regularly walk about with such loads? If they were caught with them it would be a certain conviction for carrying an offensive weapon (or somesuch) as there is no legitimate use for it.

 

J.

 

Dried grain was used also

Keepers would more than likely carry a couple of rounds with them when out on their patch of a night time due to the higher number of poachers

 

In the days of these keepers it was a different way of life and the village bobby would of more than likely not batted an eyelid if he saw some young scrote with a bad limp and a red 'rash' on his legs

[bedwards1966]

Hi j, my ipad has just pinged at me , so you either have noting to watch on telly or want to stirr things on this topic ,I can't remember exactly what I've written on these topics but just the other day my house alarm went off in the early hours of the morning I only woke up because my wife was nudging me to wake up , as I did and in a daze grabbed my baseball bat and ran down stairs to my dog wagging her tail at me....there is not a cat in hells chance anyone can get there cabinet keys go to the cabinet move all the **** infront of it undo the locks grab a gun THEN get a box of cartridges that are sealed top and bottom get some cartridges out then proceed down stairs the burglars would be out the house before you know it,

 

Perhaps this is true for you.

However, for many people the cabinet isn't behind a load of rubbish that first needs moving, the keys for it are next to the bed, and there are many cartridges easily available. If you ended up stuck in your room with your family in fear that someone was about to get in and attack you then for many people a gun could be accessed very quickly.

That's not even allowing for the gun already being out, when your about to go out shooting or are cleaning it. Don't automatically assume there are no circumstances where it could not be a quick form of defense.

[JonathanL]

I dont think i would go downstairs just stand at the top of the stairs defending, at the end of the day downstairs all i got to loose is a tv, blueray and computer

 

Its upstairs family that count

 

Which is why shotguns should be kept upstairs!

 

J.

 

some one tried to burgle my house i had baby and mrs in my room, i grabbed the machete called my neighbour he ran round the back and i then went down the stair but with the mrs screaming they had legged it! but i would have had no choice but to stab them i was in fear of my family and posessions

 

Which would have been perfectly legal.

 

J,.

[JonathanL]

This may make an interesting read for you.

 

My friend was having his garage broken into during the night. Three blokes where at it trying to take his motorcross bikes. He had his little nipper in bed so didn't want to confront the burglars incase they has the better of him then entered the house.

 

He called 999 to alert the police. The desk operative said "it's a Saturday night and we are very busy, we will have an officer with you in 10minutes to 15minutes". He put the phone down then rang back, saying "it looks like one of then has a sawn off shotgun with him, it's dark but it certainly looks like one" or something to that effect.

 

He had an armed response vehicle at his home within 2minutes and 2 out the 3 arrested on the spot. It must of been passing, based very local to his home. Armed response don't deal with non firearms situations....unless you think you have seen one.

Maybe worth believing you can see a firearms in the purportrators possession if you are unfortunate to need the police.

 

It's also worth mentioning that my friend WANTED the thieves to be caught as a spate of motocross bikes being stolen was occurring in the area. Like shooting, motocross is a very close community where people look out and help each other where needed.

 

Just gives you a little extra to think about.

 

Not saying it didn'r happen but a well worn variation of a popular urban legend.

 

Do you know when this happend, exactly? Where abouts? Incident number?

 

J.

 

they aren't allowed to take the gun to bed though so that bit is out as far as legal defence is involved

 

Why?

 

J.

[TJ91]

Can I jus throw a spanner in the works...nobody has mentioned bungalows..I have always lived in bungalpws so the as soon as they enter they are on the same level as family.

I now live alone with just my black lab

 

No point risking anything for things that aren't essential in life.

If I had family in the property o would think dofferently.

 

If we are all honest, most would say they dont know what they would do, me for one. Deep sleep, middle of the night, spur of the moment....run, fight, scream, hide....i don't know what I would do as i know I wouldn't be thinking straight in that sitiation

Edited December 28, 2012 by TJ91

[JonathanL]

If they got the keys to your gun cabinet they would have a shotgun wouldn't they?

 

I remember the advice from a police officer round this way a while ago, fire one cartridge at the intruders, then put a second one in the ceiling to show you warned them...

 

More unfounded urban legend. Firing warning shots makes you look reckless and can make you look like you are antagonising the situation. The ramificatiuons of hitting somene with a warning shot do not bear thiking about, quite frankly. If you discharge a firearm during a confrontation then it should be serious enough to risk killing somome over. If it isn't then don't do it.

 

J.

 

most people that own guns/rifles, also own an array of other type weapons, as I'm a night worker, my mrs has baseball bats,swords,crossbows all to hand (all hers)

and those worrying about what would happen via police after using a gun as defense

who said anything about contacting police

your within your rights to dig a fish pond at 3am

 

You are an @rsehole.

 

J.

Edited December 28, 2012 by JonathanL

[Will Poon]

Jonathan is there any real reason why your bringing up everyone previous posts,,, or has your sky signal gone ??

[subsonicnat]

Any form of ammunition be it Blanks or sugar, You would be done ,no doubt of it:

It shows INTENT, that would be their argument and quite rightly so:

Fear of your LIFE is the only excuse:

And How did you come to get to the gun and ammunition in time to stop him(Them).

It would be a a very tricky one to answer Eh:!!!!!!!.

So do not think you will get away with it, More likely a Long prison term, answer WRONG and you will go down:

Would I ????.. Now your asking a question I cannot answer myself to be honest: (AXE) (HAMMER) (KNIFE) (SCREWDRIVER): on Drugs,

inside your house, 3AM : it would be bloody frightening I think:, you do have Wives and Kids:: enough said::::

[JonathanL]

for crying out loud we are talking guns that have a legal requirement to be kept locked up not sporting gear you can leave lying round the house.

 

Public opinion however is actually quite pro people shooting burglars however you have to have a very specific situation where you don't get sent down for it . Thats also assuming whoever you shoot is actually a burglar

 

Not strictly true though. The condition on your certificate requires you to take precautions to prevent access to the guns, as far as is reasonably practicable, by persons who are not authorised to be in possession of them. The case of the couple who were arrested after the sum bags they shot had burgled their house were, I think, both certificate holders. The being the case, the fact that the guns were not locked in a cabinet may not have been relevant.

 

It's not relavent who the persom is whom you shoot, kill or injure. He may or may not be a burglar. The law on self defence is very, very clear and has been for hundreds of years. If you have a genuinely held belief that you or another is in immediate danger of unlawful serious injury or death at the hands of a third party then you can use force to stop that happening even if the inevitable result of your action means killing the person in question.

 

The rubbish that the government have spouted recently on 'reforming' the law of self defence is just that - rubbish! The proposal is that a use of force will be lawful unless it is grossly excessive. Which.....is precisely the situation at the moment!

 

J.

 

I agree, and genuinely hope that any change to the law affords protection those who are forced to defend themselves, whether they happen to have a gun in their hand or a fireplace poker.

 

As above. That is already the case. There is no need for a change in the law in that respect. It is all so much political wordsmithing and not much more.

 

J.

 

I'm not sure that any change to the law is actually needed, or even that it is proposed.

The way I read Chris Grayling's speech, he was just dropping a very broad hint to the police and the CPS, pointing out that people already have the legal right to use necessary force to protect themselves, other people and their property, when needs must. The only difference that I picked up was that he expressed the view that police should treat the householder in this situation as the victim, not the criminal, unless the amount of force used was "Wholly disproportionate" - giving an example of stabbing a burglar who was already unconcious.

 

This is my view is a very necessary and long-overdue clarification. All too often, the problem isn't what the law considers to be right or wrong when it comes to self defence, but what the police consider to be right or wrong - of course, their job is just to investigate suspected crimes and to pass their findings to the CPS, but some of them seem to think that they are judge and jury too...

 

Precisely.

 

J.

[TJ91]

Don't stop now JonathanL ...you are on a roll, not many posts left to quote and reply to!

[Will Poon]

Don't stop now JonathanL ...you are on a roll, not many posts left to quote and reply to!

Lol :D

[JonathanL]

If you point a gun at someone it is not an act of defence.It is an act of aggression lets be clear on that. Anyone that thinks diffident is misguided. It is one of the most aggressive things you can do.If you point a weapon at someone it means you want to do them harm. How can that be a act of defence

 

Of course it can! Defence, by its very definition has to be aggressive. If you are not prepared to offer violence then you cannot defend your self, only aquiesse.

 

J.

[demonwolf444]

Defence in to defend something.. so your property.. dont know if you can defend your property with a violent act but you can certainly defend your life if you feel its in danger. Never the less generally in most situations there is no way in hell you are going to get to a cabinate if you are really fearing for your life...

Edited December 28, 2012 by demonwolf444

[JonathanL]

I doubt I'd ever go for a gun if it came down to it unless I'd seen an armed person approaching my house, not that I think anyone is wrong for saying they would do as if you genuinely believe your life is in danger then you should use any means possible.

 

I keep two kubotans (the pointed type) in my bedside draw if the dogs kick off or the alarm goes off I go down with one in each hand. thankfully on the two occasions I have gone down its been false alarms, but I know I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a couple of blows to the collar bone, shoulders or arms with them. There designed for putting pressure on joints or pressure points or can attach your keys to them to use as a flail to aim for the face/eyes/hands to disable/dissarm someone or to just to grip to give a more solid punch. I'd rather use these than get caught out trying to figure out which keys which whilst scrambling for a gun.

 

best bet is get yourself a decent dog or two, I've got two staffies who are lovely natured dogs but if they hear anything in the night or the door or gate goes even in daytime they go mad till they it's ok, neither are naturally people or dog aggressive but both have a guarding protective nature and I've no doubt they'd both die before anyone hurt my wife.

 

I'd rather deter a burglar with barking dogs than have to apprehend one but if it boiled down to it they'd be getting windmilled with blows till they was down and probably a few extra for luck, I'm just glad the law is now starting to look after the innocent a little better as it might make some of these scumbags think again if they know there not as well protected now.

 

Fantasy land! Unless you have been highly trained in close combat then anyone you take on with a kubotan is going to seriously mess you up. The kubotan wasn't even designed to cause injury.

 

I once read something to the effect that, "If you carry a knife for self defence then you had better have won a few knife fights or you're on a suicide mission". Can't remember where but it seems to have more than a grain of truth to it. Fighting people is usually a very, very messy business, especially against people who are there in a professional criminal capacity.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Well the last part I agree with - it wouldn't be pretty. But to say you couldn't shoot someone with a shotgun and not kill them, well I disagree. A round to the lower legs would put a stop to their antics yet leave them with a good chance of survival. I really doubt it would go that far - looking down the barrels of a shotgun is enough to put most people off and reconsider their plan I'd say!

 

Anyone who isn't bothered - well god knows what they'd do to you if they get hold of you because they're certainly not thinking clearly.

 

The talk of prison, well you must have missed my first post where I said I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.

 

Of course you could shoot some and not kill them but that's not the point. You should never shoot at someone without expecting to kill them beause you very well might do. In short, unless you have a genuinely held belief that you, or someone else, is in danger of serious injury or death then you should not use a firearm of any description. The same goes for any course of action which coulod seriously injure or kill the assailant.

 

j.

[cockercas]

Are you all really that scared of been robbed. The 4 houses around me have been robbed at night. The houses left right front amd back so im in the center. This was a few years ago. Im going to guess that they knew who i was (as most people do) knew i had guns and didnt want the possabilty of been confronted by a naked guy with a gun.

Just because you have guns dosent make you a target to be robbed.

Tvs, ipads ect are all easy to shift on and carry a caution for handeling stolen goods.

A 12bore isnt and its prison if you are caught with it.

I know some un-disaeables. The last thing they would want is guns

[Catweazle]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

 

[SSS]

Last year some time, I came home very late from a night out lamping and caught someone trying to break into my garage. I had my 222 rifle over one shoulder and shotgun over the other and pockets bursting with ammunition. It was a massive shock to say the least, and all I had to do was undo a zip and I had full access to a firearm. A lot of things go through your mind when this actually happens to you, the main thing I thought was simply "now what". I could see he had something in his rright hand, a screwdriver? A knife? A hammer? It could have been a gun of some description for all I knew. My instant reaction to the situation, self preservation. I thought a lot of 'what ifs' and him grabbing one of my guns and doibg me in was a massive fear. His reaction was the same thing, we both looked at each other in a state of shock and panic and we both ran away from each other. Saying what you will do in the situation is very different to what you will actually do. Just incase anyone is interested, it took plod 50 minutes to get to me, and Im only 6 miles from the nearest town.

Edited December 29, 2012 by SSS