The Police are making me break the law

[kitchrat]

Try this one then...

My old license was due to expire so I applied in good time and the new one arrived promptly. All well and good,

BUT I decide to buy another gun, dealer has to stamp the old (but still valid) cert as the new one is not yet valid. All well and good,

BUT I decide to take the new gun abroad.

Try explaining to Customs that the gun is not on your new (now valid) cert but on the old (now invalid) cert. ( I did show them both) I missed my flight because of the Jobsworth who insisted that I should have had the new cert "Updated" by the police. Of course there is no way you can do that and if there were, sending it off to them would put you in a difficult position too......

[al4x]

hang on that story has changed a bit from the FEO checking security taking your guns to customs holding you. Herts if you had an application in in proper time and it was their fault do not seize guns especially the civilian FEO who checks security and goes over your application doesn't. Unless there was another reason that got highlighted during the check

 

Turning up for a flight with a gun not on your ticket is an obvious issue and i wouldn't expect anyone to get through customs like that

[JonathanL]

Are you serious?A highly unlikely scenario if the licensing authority is responsible for none issue of a new ticket before the expiry of another.Think I'll stick with Mr Harriman if you don't mind.

 

Of course I'm serious - it happens all the time. I know many people who have been told in no uncertain terms that their cert will not be renewed before it expires and that they won't be getting a sec.7 permit so they need to store their guns somewhere. It happened to me on my last renewal and I had the paprtwork in in good time. If I hadn't put them in storage then they would have been lifted and I would be prosecuted for illegal possession.

 

It really doesnt make any difference whether it's their fault that it won't be renewed. There is no time requirement so they can please themselves. Sometimes they do issue a sec.7 permit and sometimes they don't - it really just depends on what their policy at the time happens to be. They may be the least efficient licensing dpartment in the country and the inefficiency may be entirely their fault but they are not required to issue a sec.7 permit. If you don't have a valid cert then they can lift your guns and you!

 

J.

[al4x]

and there we have the huge difference with one licensing team putting in writing that you are ok while an application is in progress and another saying it isn't. You'd be seriously silly to not put them into storage if told to do so, but vice versa with a letter stating the delay was down to them and to keep the guns then I would keep them and not panic.

[JonathanL]

It's nothing like speeding through a red light, its highly dangerous and could seriously injure or kill someone !!

 

Having an expired sgc won't !!!!

 

 

If I got pulled by the police and they discovered I had no certificate, then I would show them the letter they sent me stating that I do not have to hand my guns in.

 

The officer who pulled me only has to make a call to verify the letter.

 

Cps would nfa. There's no case there.

 

Plus, the police would be VERY busy arresting the 100s of expired certificate holders all over Hampshire, who's renewals were caught up in the back log.

 

There is a massive amount of assumption here. You assume as to what the cop will do - he may just decide that the letter is a forgery and nick you anyway. he may just decide to nick you because he can - and he most certainly can. Does your licensing department open at 2am? If it doesn't (which it won't) then who is he going to call? Do you want to be the copper who lets some guy walk away with some illegal guns only to find out later that your colleagues were on their way to seize his guns?

 

Believe me, if they feel the need to raid several hundred cert holders then that is exactly what they will do. If there were loads of expired certs in Durham on the 1st of January this year then you can bet your life that they would all have had their guns seized as a 'precaution'.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

hang on that story has changed a bit from the FEO checking security taking your guns to customs holding you. Herts if you had an application in in proper time and it was their fault do not seize guns especially the civilian FEO who checks security and goes over your application doesn't. Unless there was another reason that got highlighted during the check

 

Turning up for a flight with a gun not on your ticket is an obvious issue and i wouldn't expect anyone to get through customs like that

 

The point is though that THE POLICE ARE TELLING PEOPLE IT'S OK! It's not ok, it's illegal and might end up causing massive problems that may not be apparent at the time.

 

J.

[chrispti]

 

 

There is a massive amount of assumption here. You assume as to what the cop will do - he may just decide that the letter is a forgery and nick you anyway. he may just decide to nick you because he can - and he most certainly can. Does your licensing department open at 2am? If it doesn't (which it won't) then who is he going to call? Do you want to be the copper who lets some guy walk away with some illegal guns only to find out later that your colleagues were on their way to seize his guns?

 

Believe me, if they feel the need to raid several hundred cert holders then that is exactly what they will do. If there were loads of expired certs in Durham on the 1st of January this year then you can bet your life that they would all have had their guns seized as a 'precaution'.

 

J.

 

The whole thread is based on assumptions.

 

You could get nicked and spend a night in the cells.

 

But ultimately, I would not get prosecuted.

[al4x]

The point is though that THE POLICE ARE TELLING PEOPLE IT'S OK! It's not ok, it's illegal and might end up causing massive problems that may not be apparent at the time.

 

J.

 

but never has so far...........

[Dekers]

The point is though that THE POLICE ARE TELLING PEOPLE IT'S OK! It's not ok, it's illegal and might end up causing massive problems that may not be apparent at the time.

 

J.

but never has so far...........

 

Now, that's where the dilema stands, because the way I see it you are both right!

[al4x]

You can only imagine what a decent brief would make of a delay in the licensing department causing them to put in writing that it was fine to keep guns and then you getting arrested. We're talking serious compensation but an event that is never going to happen as even the CPS at their most silly wouldn't entertain the notion of winning that one. Thats why it has never happened the whole essence of firearms licensing is stopping naughty people having guns the facts are you are complying with their requirements in having and renewing a certificate so when the department in question are reasonable and say the delay is their fault carry on as you are you can assume they have also put in place the notification to officers on the ground to not arrest people with renewals under way. Many moons ago I had a similar instance and took the advice and went with it no problems my FEO claimed there was as much effort in a temporary cert as a renewal so all it does is adds to the workload and make matters worse.

 

The main thing is you getting your ticket back in time, I would suggest those being told to lodge them and possibly seeing the big stick wielded are those who didn't get a completed application in in good time

Edited November 14, 2012 by al4x

[Bazooka Joe]

http://lewisnedas.co...-saunsbury.html

 

 

Interesting link, which mirrors my last renewal with Durham.

[JonathanL]

The whole thread is based on assumptions.

 

You could get nicked and spend a night in the cells.

 

But ultimately, I would not get prosecuted.

 

And a night in the cells will show up on a CRB check for the rest of your life. You will not be able to utilise the visa waiver program if you travel to the USA (and some other places) which means you have to apply for a visa which costs hundreds of pounds - not to mention having to explain a firearms arrest to US immigration. If you end up missing work due to your arrest then there may be implications there too as you have a duty towards your employer. The arrest would be perfectly proper so your employer may argue that you willingly put your self in that position.

 

You do NOT know for certain that you would not be prosecuted. You are in illegal possession of firearms and may well get prosecuted. It may indeed be a small chance but if you were then you may well get convicted and for many shooters that is a huge part of their life gone as you would probably not get a cert again.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

but never has so far...........

 

Err, yes it has. On this very thread we have already heard from one chap who had his guns seized and another who missed a flight.

 

Even if it hadn't ever happened that isn't to say that it wouldn't. If it could happen then probability theory dictates that it will happen sooner or later. The thing is that the fall out may be very serious given that firearms are involved. On the very simple matter of insurance - does your insurance cover you for loss, damage or injury when in possession or through the use of illegal guns? I would suggest that it probably does not. If you crash your car whilst drunk (which is illegal) then the insurer will not pay out for the car even if it wasn't your fault. I strongly suspect that the same applies to firearms.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

You can only imagine what a decent brief would make of a delay in the licensing department causing them to put in writing that it was fine to keep guns and then you getting arrested. We're talking serious compensation but an event that is never going to happen as even the CPS at their most silly wouldn't entertain the notion of winning that one. Thats why it has never happened the whole essence of firearms licensing is stopping naughty people having guns the facts are you are complying with their requirements in having and renewing a certificate so when the department in question are reasonable and say the delay is their fault carry on as you are you can assume they have also put in place the notification to officers on the ground to not arrest people with renewals under way. Many moons ago I had a similar instance and took the advice and went with it no problems my FEO claimed there was as much effort in a temporary cert as a renewal so all it does is adds to the workload and make matters worse.

 

The main thing is you getting your ticket back in time, I would suggest those being told to lodge them and possibly seeing the big stick wielded are those who didn't get a completed application in in good time

 

And what constitutes 'in good time'? At the moment it's whatever the police say it is. I personally know someone who was told that the renewal process was such that he would be fine is he got it in 10 weeks before expiry. Things then slowed down and 12 weeks for the goign rate. He was told to put his guns in storage and wasn't given an option.

 

You are probably correct that the CPS may not prosecute you. The fact remains though that you are in unlawful possession and could be prosecuted. It all seems very straight forward when you are only talking about a few days - what about longer though? What about a month; a couple of months; six months; ten months? At what point do you arrive at the conclusion that the police can't be bothered to renew tickets and are effectively telling people that you don't really need one one more? If you arrive at that point it could well be argued that you are colluding with the police to possess guns illegally.

 

Think of this; recently, in Durham two cops were convicted of selling guns which had come into the possession of the police. They had been doing this for years and years and it was very common knowledge. The police knew all about it. I know for a fact that they did because I have personally seen peoples FAC's with acquisition spaces filled in to the effect of 'PC Bloggs, XYZ Police Station' and the new owners sent their notifications to the relevant licensing departments. They had, in effect, been given permission to do it by the police yet all of a sudden someone decides it's illegal and they end up being convicted of theft and losing their jobs and pensions. That is precisely the situation here all be it that illegal possession is an even more serious offence. Moreover, the police willingly did this to two of their own so none of them will lose too much sleep in dropping Joe Average FAC holder in the doo-doo.

 

If (or rather when) the wheel comes off the CPS will prosecute you in a heartbeat if they think its in their best interests to do so. As someone has already pointed out, the police cannot give you permission to break the law. They can't tell you it's ok to do 180mph up a side street and the fact that they have done will have little effect on whether you are prosecuted or not.

 

J.

Edited November 14, 2012 by JonathanL

[chrispti]

 

 

And a night in the cells will show up on a CRB check for the rest of your life. You will not be able to utilise the visa waiver program if you travel to the USA (and some other places) which means you have to apply for a visa which costs hundreds of pounds - not to mention having to explain a firearms arrest to US immigration. If you end up missing work due to your arrest then there may be implications there too as you have a duty towards your employer. The arrest would be perfectly proper so your employer may argue that you willingly put your self in that position.

 

You do NOT know for certain that you would not be prosecuted. You are in illegal possession of firearms and may well get prosecuted. It may indeed be a small chance but if you were then you may well get convicted and for many shooters that is a huge part of their life gone as you would probably not get a cert again.

 

J.

 

I'm not going to the US ...... What if, what if ....

 

My feo was round last night checking my cabinet for my renewal, I put this to him, he told me, although technically it is against the law, I, nor the hundreds of others in the same situation, will get prosecuted.

 

 

[Dunkield]

You need to apply a certain amount of common sense in these situations. I had no FAC or SGC for 3 months when Thames Valley were in backlog. I called BASC who advised me to take my rifles and expanding ammo to the local gun shop and invoice TVP for storage.

Naturally I ignored this advice and called my FEO, he said you have my number if you get challenge by anyone have them call me.

A month or so later both certificates turned up.

Personally I think people focus too much on the 'what if' scenarios and lose touch with reality.

[JonathanL]

I'm not going to the US ...... What if, what if ....

 

My feo was round last night checking my cabinet for my renewal, I put this to him, he told me, although technically it is against the law, I, nor the hundreds of others in the same situation, will get prosecuted.

 

'What if' is what life is all about though. If it happens then the consequesnses might well be horrendous.

 

Whether you get prosecuted or not has got absolutely sod-all to do with your licensing department. They issues certificates and do not make prosecution decisions. If the police want to report you for illegal possession they will regardless of what some office bod wants them to do. Same when it comes to the CPS making a prosecution decision.

 

Was he willing to put any of that in writing? I would strongly suspect not. In fact has anyone actually had anything to that effect in writing?

 

J.

[JonathanL]

You need to apply a certain amount of common sense in these situations. I had no FAC or SGC for 3 months when Thames Valley were in backlog. I called BASC who advised me to take my rifles and expanding ammo to the local gun shop and invoice TVP for storage.

Naturally I ignored this advice and called my FEO, he said you have my number if you get challenge by anyone have them call me.

A month or so later both certificates turned up.

Personally I think people focus too much on the 'what if' scenarios and lose touch with reality.

 

You're wrong. BASC are perfectly right on this one. It matters not what he says, if an investigating officer wants to nick you are report you for illegal possession he will do. Your licensing department cannot tell the police what oprational decisions to make. How do you know the police aren't about to arrest the licensing department as they did with the two cops in Durham?

 

If the DVLA said is was perfectly ok to drive for a month or so when your licence had expired would you still do it? If the police said it was fine to drive without insurance or an MOT would you do it? You might do but it would mark you as a total idiot.

 

Also, on top of everything else I and others have mentioned; we have even had someone post advice from a firm of solicitors on the subject who are telling people not to do it. I mean, how much more convincing do people need?

 

J.

Edited November 14, 2012 by JonathanL

[al4x]

Ahh calling mods idiots are we near the end of the what if scenarios!

 

Fundamentally feo's are applying the licensing laws the fact a force can't keep up due to cuts is one thing. Basc can only give the completely safe option and indeed there is nothing stopping people following their advice. However most of us will keep working with licensing departments till the first case goes to court then we may think differently, though that's assuming the force that does it doesn't end up on the end of a severe compensation claim

[chrispti]

 

 

'What if' is what life is all about though. If it happens then the consequesnses might well be horrendous.

 

Whether you get prosecuted or not has got absolutely sod-all to do with your licensing department. They issues certificates and do not make prosecution decisions. If the police want to report you for illegal possession they will regardless of what some office bod wants them to do. Same when it comes to the CPS making a prosecution decision.

 

Was he willing to put any of that in writing? I would strongly suspect not. In fact has anyone actually had anything to that effect in writing?

 

J.

 

Yes I have it in writing, the letter was from the chief constable...

Edited November 14, 2012 by chrispti

[chrispti]

Hope this works ......

 

Bottom paragraph.....

Edited November 14, 2012 by chrispti

[TopDown]

An assurance a firearms licensing department has no authority to make. I guarantee you they won't be there to say it's OK if you got stopped by response officers while out lamping. Letter might have the Chiefs name on top but then so does all headed paper. I wonder if he knows.

[chrispti]

An assurance a firearms licensing department has no authority to make. I guarantee you they won't be there to say it's OK if you got stopped by response officers while out lamping. Letter might have the Chiefs name on top but then so does all headed paper. I wonder if he knows.

 

Apparently he does....... Would be pretty poor and unprofessional if he didn't know how his own constabulary operated.

 

Surely the procedure would have had to have been submitted to him for approval in the first instance......

 

Not to mention my feo is a serving police officer...

[TopDown]

Not sure how much involvement the CC would have. I would hope CC's would know but it would surprise me if they would all be willing to put their name on a letter which reassures the applicant of something which they have no authority to control. Local agreement is all very well until something goes bad.

 

Your FEO has very little influence on any of this.

[chrispti]

Either way, that is Hampshire's policy. No licence holder in Hampshire will get prosecuted for adhering to it.

 

Simple as that.