What cartridges is everyone using for duck?

[Wildfowler]

I use Bornaghi 36g 4s in my 2 3/4'' guns and Gamebore Mammoth 3'' in 4s for duck on the foreshore and 3 1/2'' in 1s for geese. I've only used the Gamebore mammoth for a few flights and have pulled of shots i wouldn't have considered with a 2 3/4'' cartridge!

[Guest cookoff013]

Ok then why dont game shoters use 3&1/2 60g lead carts on phesant,more shot more chance of hitting the bird. Because 32g is enough. With a lighter load ie 70mm 32g 4's you have more shot and more strikes on duck size pattern test and a shorter shot cup than with 3"36g 3's. The 3's may carry a bit more energy but the 4's carry a bit more speed. I would rather have more shot and speed. Well thats my thoughts on the matter and my 70mm 4's drop more duck than 3" 3's. Dont forget I have used the mamouth 3" 1's and 3's. And the 70mm are a reasonable price and findable in the dark.

 

thats a false statement, if i loaded the same cartriidge of 32g of #4 steel and #3 steel at the same speed, they both have the same energy applied, this is calculated from the muzzel speed. indeed the 3 do carry more energy.

but under no circumstances will 4s ever carry more speed than the3s.

upon leaving the barrel all shot looses speed. the bigger the shot the less energy it looses. this is just due to the weight

in reality there is very little difference between steel 3 and steel 4. but this is simply just due to the fact that steel is lower density.

[Albert 888]

I apapologise if im wrong. My thinking was the same amounts of power and the two different shot sizes the 4's would have reached the said target faster. I will just stick to shooting in future instead of talking about it. Seam to be better at that. Have a nice day Albert.:-)

[anser2]

I have shot a lot of steel at duck over the years ( I wildfowl about 4-5 days a week using about 400-500 shells a season ) and until the new Eley VIP HP shells would never attempt using 5s. I have used 4s in most of the brands and found 4s wounded too many birds. I did use them a few weels ago and they performed well out to 35-40 yards over a flash on wigeon and mallard. But my tried and tested shells for foreshore small - medium duck are Gamebore Mammoths 36 gr in no 3. They will consistantly kill teal and wigeon out to 45 yards and sometimes a little further , but the pattern becomes a bit open for teal at long range. But I have found they will only kill mallard cleanly to 40 yards max. Again I find too higher percentage are wounded.

 

For flighting mallard at 50 yards i have found nothing to beat the Remmington 3.5 inch , Sportsman , 1 3\8ths load in No 2 used with a American choke made for steel which is only a fraction under ( .700 ) full lead choke. I have yet to have a winged duck with this load with 90% of hit birds dead in the air , or maybe the fall killed them , joking. I have never patterened the No 2s but when used with BBB for geese this choke paterns have produced 70 pellets in a 30 inch circle at 50 yards out of 93 pellets per cartridge , using an American Turkey choke made by HLS Undertaker).

 

So to sum up

 

Over ponds\flashes , 2 3\4 inch Eley VIP HP No 5 or RC 34 gr loads in No 3- choke I\C

 

Foreshore teal\ wigeon Gamebore Mammoths 3 inch 36 gr No 3 - Choke I\C

 

High flighting mallard , Remmington 3.5 inch loads of no 2. - Choke full , but only in after chokes made for steel.

 

These bring clean kills with very few winged birds.

Edited November 25, 2012 by anser2

[Guest cookoff013]

I apapologise if im wrong. My thinking was the same amounts of power and the two different shot sizes the 4's would have reached the said target faster. I will just stick to shooting in future instead of talking about it. Seam to be better at that. Have a nice day Albert.:-)

no need to appologise, its just there is so much bull discussed and accepted as gospel truth. even on these forums. i wouldnt have known half the sutuff that i do without researching it fully.

you should hear some of the rubbish i`ve been told in the past. these forums are medium for people to exchange, experiences. i help alot of reloaders to try and dispell the myths and bull that is spouted and in complete rubbish.

 

i was told if i used steel shot, i will die. i have now shot more than 2000 shells. i`m still here.

here is just a few more myths.

-the government is responsable for my safety reguarding reloading.

-every shell has an ounce of shot in it. the cartridge manufacturers are screwing us over.

-shells have the amount of powder on the side ie 28g = 28grains of powder.

- shells can fail at the proof house because they have too much wad pressure.

-i cant have my ammo tested.

-i cant shoot BBs at stuff.

-all shells have #6 shot in them. (?)

- all powders are the same, why would the government sell you a dangerous powder?

-the same guy who goes on about this carp, blew up a baikal. 3" shell in 2.75" chamber

- i shouldnt bother reloading there is no point.

 

i spend alot of time and effort to get guys reloading safely. i`ve had real bad experiences with bismuth.

there isnt much difference between 4-3 shot, as steel is less dense, the differences are minimal. i`d rather stick to 1500fps maximum and change the shotsize to an decent.

english steel 3=192 pellets per oz 2.9grain per pellet

english steel 4=243 pellets per oz. 2.3grain per pellet

not to different are they? even when you compare 1400fps loads vs 1600fps, the energy is very similar... to the ill educated shooter they are always going to go to the 4s because they allways compare it to a lead load.

a steel #4 is only equivalent to #6 but a very slow #6 lead at 40 yards. really for any decent wildfowling cartridge, US#2 (103 /oz)should be the minimum and at 1400fps minimum, that will do the business, at even 40 yards. without the need to be jumping about on a marsh after pricked game.

 

the other confusing issue is the UK manufacturers have taken there own stance on steel and re-labelled the shotsizes so that the shells seem bigger than they are. the us shotsizes are bigger. thats why the american ammo is so good like the remington steel loads.

then the uk amnufacturers grossley over estimate the spped of the shells more than 25% faster than they are.

 

where as anser2 likes the rem Sp St #2, the equivalent load here would be english #1 at 1600fps. all things being equel.

i do prefer US#BBs though, being twice the weight, and half the shotcount per oz at 6.2 grains per pellet.

 

steel US BB being equivalent to a really slow #1 in lead. even at 40 yards is going to be even better than 3-4s.

Edited November 25, 2012 by cookoff013

[Whitebridges]

Very interesting post particularly anser2 and cookoff013 viewpoints.

I've been using the Remington 20 bore loads over flashes and ponds, they're very good, very good indeed.

Choke is Cylinder and a half.

What do you reckon?

 

 

[Guest cookoff013]

thats american 2 shot 125 pellets per oz and 3.5 grains per pellet.

that is an exellent load.

 

did you know the maximum cip steel shotsize for 20 gauge is #6.

rem are a good laod.....

[Whitebridges]

I used to use 28g of hevi-shot no5 for the same job through a 12 bore cookoff013 which was excellent. I like a twenty bore though and i've been really impressed with the shell above since I started using them.

I was one of those that hated steel when it was ****, but it would seem things have moved on.

[Yoggy]

Remington sportsman and nitro for me at the moment. I like them so will stick with them .

The new Eley steel loads are having extremly good reviews so will try a few boxes when my local gunshop has them in stock.

[Guest cookoff013]

even at 1330fps the 2s still do something.

 

when steel first came out there were limited shotsizes. 6s were about it.

[Guest cookoff013]

i`ve just checked just cartridges, the only steel load that they have are 24g #5 steel. by gamebore...

thats the only 20bore steel load. how pitiful.

[anser2]

Whitebridges when I first started to use no 2 steel shot for ducks my mates thought I was joking. But its a good size for mallard . Steel keeps its pattern much better than lead and No 2 keeps a reasonable velocity. Its a job to get people to realise steel is a very different beasty to lead and pellet size and velocity are much more important.

 

If you had suggested using your Remmington no 2 loads a few years ago for ducks many on here would have thought you mad. Glad you have found a load that works for you.

[Guest cookoff013]

the biggest irony is, when steel first came out they were slow here, the americans were on the ball asap. they tested loads of shotsizes and stuck to 2s and BBs in the initial tests. 6s were used but with poor results. the sppeds they were achieving were a measly 1350fps. but with big shotsizes. they were getting adequate loads. but then manufacturers started chasing faster and faster loads. 1500fps, 1600fps and now it seems 1700fps is it. certainly the 1700fps loads can have slightly smaller shotsize than the 1500fps loads. but in reality it takes on hell of a cartridge to go 1700fps, the loading and pressure must be just right.

 

the then lead loads of that pre steel era were only 1200fps. with some slightly slower.

 

i`m of the oppinion 1500fps minimum (or 1400fps) and a decent shotsize, over all that i`d prefer a bigger shotsize. but 2s minimum and bbs for anything bigger than my arm

[figgy]

I use eley VIP steel 32g 4s and Express 34g 4s for duck on splashes gutters and for teal, but will use gamebore mammoth 36g 3s for mallard on the marsh but will use it on teal if its in the gun and they get up.

 

Figgy

[Whitebridges]

Whitebridges when I first started to use no 2 steel shot for ducks my mates thought I was joking. But its a good size for mallard . Steel keeps its pattern much better than lead and No 2 keeps a reasonable velocity. Its a job to get people to realise steel is a very different beasty to lead and pellet size and velocity are much more important.

 

If you had suggested using your Remmington no 2 loads a few years ago for ducks many on here would have thought you mad. Glad you have found a load that works for you.

 

anser2 yes i appreciate what you are saying. I used to like Eley Maximun in a No 4 lead for closer duck. When steel came in (everyone hated the stuff including me) some wise old buoy said you need to go at least two sizes up, hence the reason I use No2 steel.

I have seen some pretty appalling stuff with people that don't take enough trouble selecting the right cartridge for the target. The absolute last thing I want is a runner or wounded bird or animal. I look for a clean kill or miss. You don't always get this, we all know that this is hard to achieve all of the time, but try hard I do. The Remington steel I use above are such that when i'm on them properly they are dead, simple.

 

BTW I picked up 3k Eley pigeon cartridges from Mark at Thetford guns the other day. He has sold shed loads of these new Eley lightening loads you 'fowlers are after. He has 4 boxes of No1 36g left at £7.70 a box. Selling like hot cakes!!

 

He said he orders by the pallet to get the right price, so next delivery date unknown. His cartridge prices are bloody good. You and others might like to give him a try.

 

 

http://www.thetfordg...rdguns.co.uk/

 

 

My views are based on experience only and maybe someone can calculate the strike energy of a No 2 steel pellet at the target compared with a No 4 lead pellet at say 35 and 40 yards?

This would bring some interesting science in to things as far as i'm concerned.

 

Thank you.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Whitebridges

[Guest cookoff013]

anser2 yes i appreciate what you are saying. I used to like Eley Maximun in a No 4 lead for closer duck. When steel came in (everyone hated the stuff including me) some wise old buoy said you need to go at least two sizes up, hence the reason I use No2 steel.

I have seen some pretty appalling stuff with people that don't take enough trouble selecting the right cartridge for the target. The absolute last thing I want is a runner or wounded bird or animal. I look for a clean kill or miss. You don't always get this, we all know that this is hard to achieve all of the time, but try hard I do. The Remington steel I use above are such that when i'm on them properly they are dead, simple.

 

BTW I picked up 3k Eley pigeon cartridges from Mark at Thetford guns the other day. He has sold shed loads of these new Eley lightening loads you 'fowlers are after. He has 4 boxes of No1 36g left at £7.70 a box.

 

He said he orders by the pallet to get the right price, so next delivery date unknown. His cartridge prices are bloody good. You and others might like to give him a try.

 

 

http://www.thetfordg...rdguns.co.uk/

 

 

My views are based on experience only and maybe someone can calculate the strike energy of a No 2 steel pellet at the target compared with a No 4 lead pellet at say 35 and 40 yards?

This would bring some interesting science in to things as far as i'm concerned.

 

Thank you.

 

what is the original fps of both the loads. i can assure you that the lead load will always beat the steel with 3-4x as much energy, even when using silly speeds like subsonics, my prefered subsonic is a #4 lead.

at 40 yards, comparing lead 4 MV of 800fps

and #6 lead MV 1500fps the #4 has about 4-5 times the energy.

[Whitebridges]

when steel first came out there were limited shotsizes. 6s were about it.

 

Good reason why they were so pitiful to use and sensible folk moved to other heavier non-toxic loads.

 

 

 

i`ve just checked just cartridges, the only steel load that they have are 24g #5 steel. by gamebore...

thats the only 20bore steel load. how pitiful.

 

Rubbish isn't it. There area lot of shooters that like a 20 bore and shoot the odd duck drive. What are they going to go run back to the Range Rover and run back with their twelve bore, in the meantime they've missed the drive!

Or they stay put and shoot it with lead or they use pathetic steel loads! ummm

Edited November 27, 2012 by Whitebridges

[Whitebridges]

what is the original fps of both the loads. i can assure you that the lead load will always beat the steel with 3-4x as much energy, even when using silly speeds like subsonics, my prefered subsonic is a #4 lead.

at 40 yards, comparing lead 4 MV of 800fps

and #6 lead MV 1500fps the #4 has about 4-5 times the energy.

 

The Eley Maximum are 1245 FPS

 

http://www.maxam.net...e20089FINAL.pdf

 

The Remington are 1330 FPS (see post #31, this thread) on the box.

 

Thank you cookoff013 . :good:

Edited November 27, 2012 by Whitebridges

[Guest cookoff013]

The Eley Maximum are 1245 FPS

 

http://www.maxam.net...e20089FINAL.pdf

 

The Remington are 1330 FPS (see post #31, this thread) on the box.

 

Thank you cookoff013 . :good:

 

whitefridges,

as steel is a completely different beast, the example i gave is for lead. but the steel loads are disimilar in performance. this is due to the density difference. the bigger density, maintains shotspeed over distanc so looses less speed over longer time of flight.

 

the difference between #2 and #4 vs 1500fps and 1600fps at 40 yards is only .5ftlbs or for each respectively. due to the low density of steel and low speed (1330fps) i`d say the differnce between #2 and #4 to be about .5ftlbs again. at 1330 fps i bet they pattern beutifully.

 

i`m in the current mind of compromise between 1450fps and selecting an overly large shotsize. doing both will squeeze out some performance, nearly as good as standard lead loads. shooting 2s at stuff should make them dead right there, even at 40yards. the only thing thats a pain with the 20gauge, the lack of volume for large amounts of powder.

 

but reality is, skill wins.

[Whitebridges]

Thanks for the technical insight cookoff013, i appreciate the trouble you have taken with your reply.

The Remington's are working for me, so i'll continue to use them.

[Guest cookoff013]

Thanks for the technical insight cookoff013, i appreciate the trouble you have taken with your reply.

The Remington's are working for me, so i'll continue to use them.

 

i hear the remingtons are an exellent cartridge.

Edited November 30, 2012 by cookoff013

[Whitebridges]

I'm reassured. I go to a lot of trouble trying to find the best load(s) for the target and the Remington 20 bores hit the right spot for inland duck flighting and closer up work on flooded grazing land of which we have a lot of here in Norfolk at the moment!

 

Thanks again.

[soap]

I like the steel 36gm 3s. Just got back from a flight on the Humber and got a teal, mallard and pink! Probably a bit heavy for the teal but I have found they work well for duck and gease at sensible ranges.

[steve0146]

I have tried allsorts. From bismuth, hevi shot, tungsten and lots of types of steel. Would not touch steel in 2 3/4 in any shot size unless decoying or flight ponds. Bismuth drops birds but I have had too many runners. I changed to a 3in chambered gun and it made a massive difference. 10 geese shot last year, from Canada's to Pinks, and all dead. High widgeon and mallard the same. 36g no 3 every time for me. (Lyavale). Closer shots dont seem to damage the birds. Shot three teal last weekend fairly close and all eatable.

 

Have to add, very keen to try this lightening steel.

[Chad63]

I started using steel 2 years before the lead ban came in and have since tried many of the factory loads in 2 3/4" and 3", including Lyalvale, Hull, Eley, RC, Gamebore, Remington, Winchester, Bornaghi, Mirage and Nobel. All through double barrel guns (I hate semi's) and all with fixed chokes. For me the RC 32gr 3's (3.6mm) through a half choke are by far the best duck and close in (30 yard max) gooses loads I've used. Of all the loads I've tried I always had better success on duck with the lighter 32gr stuff. I also found when patten testing, the lighter loads gave far better penetration and in some cases better pattens out to 45 yards which is as far as I personally would want to shoot a 12 bore....... I must just add I've never used a 3.5" 12 (never felt the need for one) so I can't comment on them.

 

Recently I've started using fast, low pressure, home loaded 24 & 28gr 3.5mm steel that a mate developed and love it. I'm using it in a 30 year old SxS and killing ducks as far as I ever did with any 12ga lead load, both foreshore and inland. The recoil in the 6 1/2lb gun is non existent and makes me think that, just possibly, the days of the NEED of big heavy clumsy guns are coming to an end!

 

I know many Americans are now going down the light fast route, often with 16 & 20 bores!