Help with concentricity issues........

[jam1e]

Hi PG members,

Will a small amount of run out or "concentricity" have much of an effect on accuracy?

A few rounds are slightly out. I can only tell when i role them on the edge of a flat surface.

I ask, as my understanding, (by forums and factory rounds) is that the .204 rounds bennefit from a reasonable jump to the lands. If thats the case i'm wondering if hitting the lands off centre would effect the accuracy. Or, if the lands would take hold of the bullet head and make it square while travelling up the barrel.

Any ideas folks??

[cockercas]

The bullet will travel square up the barrel, but yes it dose effect accuracy.

[swift]

I like my rounds to be 2 thou and under for best accuracy I use a Sinclair concentricity Gauge to check the run out.if you are shooting short range 100, 200 you won't

see much difference till you start to extend the range. mine are good to 600 yards with my set ups 6mmbr & .243 . plus you know what they say what go's in crooked

comes out crooked.

[Redgum]

Most reloads will have a certain amount of run out, the lee collet neck sizing die has been to proven to be one of the most accurate dies in regard to run out. Obvioulsy this will effect accuracy but most dies will have marginal run out unless very faulty. I see you have put quite a few posts up about your 204 reloads, are you new to reloading?

[jam1e]

Most reloads will have a certain amount of run out, the lee collet neck sizing die has been to proven to be one of the most accurate dies in regard to run out. Obvioulsy this will effect accuracy but most dies will have marginal run out unless very faulty. I see you have put quite a few posts up about your 204 reloads, are you new to reloading?

Thanks for the info folks.

Yes i am new to reloading Redgum. I appreciate i'm on here alot, and probably get on a few peoples nerves. However, i'm very interested in the reloading game and as such i'm always reading or watching on something or other to do with reloading. I like to ask on PW as there is such a wealth of knowledge on here and it's generally in laymans terms and from experience rather than "fancy" talk.

Good or bad, my full length sizing die and seating die are Hornady. My neck sizing die is Redding.

Cheers

Jamie

Edited November 30, 2012 by jam1e

[Vince Green]

I remember reading an article in one of the better American mags some years back where the author was saying don't worry about run-out. its a made up problem (basically). Not saying thats right or wrong.

[1066]

I really don't think a few thou of runout is too much of a problem for you Jamie. Are you using a good Single stage press or a Turret? If you were shooting 3" x 5 shot groups at 300yds and you were trying to get them down to half that then these are the type of thing that you would be really paying attention to.

 

If you want to see how much difference it makes, load a batch of say 20 rounds exactly the same and to the best of your ability, do your "roll" test and select the 5 worst rounds. Then select the 5 best rounds - Then go and shoot the rounds under ideal conditions with a solid bench and good sandbags. Measure the groups carefully, you should find out if the results are exceptable for what you want to do at the ranges you do it.

 

Of course, you might just enjoy the satisfaction of shooting tiny groups with ammunition you have made yourself.

[Redgum]

Thanks for the info folks.

Yes i am new to reloading Redgum. I appreciate i'm on here alot, and probably get on a few peoples nerves. However, i'm very interested in the reloading game and as such i'm always reading or watching on something or other to do with reloading. I like to ask on PW as there is such a wealth of knowledge on here and it's generally in laymans terms and from experience rather than "fancy" talk.

Good or bad, my full length sizing die and seating die are Hornady. My neck sizing die is Redding.

Cheers

Jamie

jamie, firstly, if you post on here all day I doupt if you will get on anyones nerves, most of us are more than willing to help out so ask away. Hornady and Redding dies are probably a bit more upmarket than Lee so should do the job. I have been reloading for three years now and have followed the same path as you though I reload 243 and 308. If you are having accuracy problems then more than likely it won't be the equipment, well thats how it was for me. Loading your own ammunition doesnt make it lazer guided but you will make better than factory I'm sure, cheaper too. Forget how far the bullet is from the lands,run out and neck tension for now and just rely on what the dies do and load to your manual spec. Make sure your brass is well prepared and start again in half grain increments, find a load that shoots well, try a few differanct bullet weights but don't worry about the finer details. When you find a load and bullet weight that shoots consistantly well then work on that if you want to but you will have datum point to work back to and compare results. I have three great loads, 85gr and 100gr in 243 and 150gr in 308, if I go and put a few rnds down the range ten times not everytime will the bullets make nice little cloverleaves. Believe me it won't be the load or rifle.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Redgum

[jam1e]

I am interested in getting as smaller group as possible, as i enjoy that side of it.

But for now i just want to learn the basics, and as you say, sort out the finer things like lands, run-out and neck tension later.

For now i just want to achieve a group that is equal to my best factory ammo. Which is .6" at 100 yards with .32 grain Remington Accutip-v.

The press is the single stage Lee version.

Thanks for the advice fellas!

[Redgum]

The lee single stage press is an excellent piece of kit for the money,you have good enough equipment to match you best factory ammo and you know what weight bullets the rifle likes. What sort of groups have you had so far.

[zx10mike]

.6" should be easily achieved but if you are chasing smaller in future reading competition dies are very very good.

[kent]

Hi PG members,

Will a small amount of run out or "concentricity" have much of an effect on accuracy?

A few rounds are slightly out. I can only tell when i role them on the edge of a flat surface.

I ask, as my understanding, (by forums and factory rounds) is that the .204 rounds bennefit from a reasonable jump to the lands. If thats the case i'm wondering if hitting the lands off centre would effect the accuracy. Or, if the lands would take hold of the bullet head and make it square while travelling up the barrel.

Any ideas folks??

 

if you can see the runout its way too much. normally .002" is the max for the best ammo, its very important- jump is farly irrelivent in facory guns using std jump tollerant bullets. I constantly check runout and always the first few from set up

[jam1e]

The lee single stage press is an excellent piece of kit for the money,you have good enough equipment to match you best factory ammo and you know what weight bullets the rifle likes. What sort of groups have you had so far.

 

I did 3 groups of 5 shots at 100 yards. Around a ten minute break between groups.

First was the Rem 32 grain accutip-v at .6"

second were my reloads at a 2" group.

Third were Hornady 24 grain ntx which were .8"

I was disappointed at first but they were from my first batch of reloads ever made so at least they hit the target!

 

.6" should be easily achieved but if you are chasing smaller in future reading competition dies are very very good.

I'd probably leave it at .6" to be fair. But i do find it very interesting so who knows........?

[kent]

0.6" is over half an inch BTW

[Redgum]

I did 3 groups of 5 shots at 100 yards. Around a ten minute break between groups.

First was the Rem 32 grain accutip-v at .6"

second were my reloads at a 2" group.

Third were Hornady 24 grain ntx which were .8"

I was disappointed at first but they were from my first batch of reloads ever made so at least they hit the target!

 

 

I'd probably leave it at .6" to be fair. But i do find it very interesting so who knows........?

 

How have you arrived at the homeloads you tested against factory, have you worked up to that load in half grain increments. Are you loading to specs from a manual.

[1066]

0.6" is over half an inch BTW

 

A little encouragement might go a long way - we all had to start somewhere and Jamie is starting from scratch and working it out, bit at a time. Getting his groups from 2" to 1" should be his next target and reasonably easily acheivable if he starts to pay attention to the details. Assuming his .6 group is repeatable and not just a "one off" then we know he and the rifle can shoot to that standard.

 

I would start with using the same bullet that performs, in his rifle, to a known standard ie 32gn accutip. That cuts out one variable. Seat it to the same depth as the factory round and cut out another variable. Full lenght size back to Sammi spec, another variable out of the way. Very carefully weigh the powder, try a couple of different primers/ powders and make a note of every step.

 

Measure the groups carefully - find out what works and what doesn't but I would try and duplicate a factory round that works fairly well first.

[kent]

 

 

A little encouragement might go a long way - we all had to start somewhere and Jamie is starting from scratch and working it out, bit at a time. Getting his groups from 2" to 1" should be his next target and reasonably easily acheivable if he starts to pay attention to the details. Assuming his .6 group is repeatable and not just a "one off" then we know he and the rifle can shoot to that standard.

 

I would start with using the same bullet that performs, in his rifle, to a known standard ie 32gn accutip. That cuts out one variable. Seat it to the same depth as the factory round and cut out another variable. Full lenght size back to Sammi spec, another variable out of the way. Very carefully weigh the powder, try a couple of different primers/ powders and make a note of every step.

 

Measure the groups carefully - find out what works and what doesn't but I would try and duplicate a factory round that works fairly well first.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was stating the measurement, not critisising his ability. 1-2" is what you expect from a new c/f user even if they have past airgun / rimfire experiance at 100yds just outside 1/2" is not- take that however you wish though think on it

Edited December 3, 2012 by kent

[jam1e]

Thanks 1066.

I couldn't find any Remington 32 bullets. Quite a few folks on an American site have told me the Remington bullets are just Hornady with a different colour tip. Correct or not, i've ordered some of those to try.

I'm already seating them as best i can to the Rem o.a.l.

I've heard mixed results about my Magtech primers, so i've bought CCI primers now.

Hadn't thort of going back to full sizing, but it's worth a try...

Edited December 3, 2012 by jam1e

[jam1e]

A little encouragement might go a long way - we all had to start somewhere and Jamie is starting from scratch and working it out, bit at a time. Getting his groups from 2" to 1" should be his next target and reasonably easily acheivable if he starts to pay attention to the details. Assuming his .6 group is repeatable and not just a "one off" then we know he and the rifle can shoot to that standard.

 

I would start with using the same bullet that performs, in his rifle, to a known standard ie 32gn accutip. That cuts out one variable. Seat it to the same depth as the factory round and cut out another variable. Full lenght size back to Sammi spec, another variable out of the way. Very carefully weigh the powder, try a couple of different primers/ powders and make a note of every step.

 

Measure the groups carefully - find out what works and what doesn't but I would try and duplicate a factory round that works fairly well first.

 

Just ignore Kent's reply 1066. Thankfully people like him are a minority on this forum......

Edited December 3, 2012 by jam1e

[cockercas]

Just ignore Kent's reply 1066. Thankfully people like him are a minority on this forum......

full of information???

if you skip the bits were kent wants to argue then he knows what he is on about. id try not to Italianate the people who can help you just because he pointed out a mistake.

[Redgum]

full of information???

if you skip the bits were kent wants to argue then he knows what he is on about. id try not to Italianate the people who can help you just because he pointed out a mistake.

Jam1ie had already stated he was getting small groups with factory ammo so obviously he has mastered a certain level of skill. Jam1ie welcome to the handbag swinging factor of this forum, just treat it as a bit of harmless fun. You will learn alot but don't get rattled, you will come across alot of armchair heroes that always know best and will never be clever enough to see anybody elses point of view. I recently had a good old rant with kent, as per usual he couldnt see further than his own nose, sure what he was ranting on about was totally correct, just a differant subject than I was talking about.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Redgum

[jam1e]

full of information???

if you skip the bits were kent wants to argue then he knows what he is on about. id try not to Italianate the people who can help you just because he pointed out a mistake.

It's not "people" it's person. And I'd like to say it's not the first time....

I've never been anything other than grateful to people on this forum who have given me advice, including you Cockercas.

I can't be doing with people who are sarcastic and patronising.

I've nowt to say on the matter now...

Edited December 3, 2012 by jam1e

[jam1e]

Jam1ie had already stated he was getting small groups with factory ammo so obviously he has mastered a certain level of skill. Jam1ie welcome to the handbag swinging factor of this forum, just treat it as a bit of harmless fun. You will learn alot but don't get rattled, you will come across alot of armchair heroes that always know best and will never be clever enough to see anybody elses point of view. I recently had a good old rant with kent, as per usual he couldnt see further than his own nose, sure what he was ranting on about was totally correct, just a differant subject than I was talking about.

No worries on that point Redgum. I don't get rattled, i just use the ignore botton!

Weather permitting i'm off out tomorrow with a box of rounds with pad and pen. And of course a gun!

Probably p*** down now!

[Redgum]

When I first started reloading I was advised to give barrel a good clean before doing the testing. So off I went with my first loads, sure enough the groups tightened up, usually the hottest load (I never exceeded a grain before max) was the best group. I loaded up 20 of the best, check zero and the first group was rubbish ( I always clean my barrel) The groups had not been getting better due to powder quantity but the fact that the barrel was getting dirty. Now I load a few extra of the start load, just to get the barrel dirty. Once properly tested through a dirtyish barrel I had much better and consistant results. I still clean my barrel each time I use the gun and I know that the groups will tighten up by 1/4 inch to a ragged hole after a few rnds but my main aim (sorry bout the pun) is to have an accurate first shot from a cold barrel. Because of this simplest of facts I played around with the load, oal,and neck tension trying to get a consistantly accurate load,of course it wasnt going to happen, god knows how many bullets I got through. If your foundations are good you have something to build on.

[jam1e]

When I first started reloading I was advised to give barrel a good clean before doing the testing. So off I went with my first loads, sure enough the groups tightened up, usually the hottest load (I never exceeded a grain before max) was the best group. I loaded up 20 of the best, check zero and the first group was rubbish ( I always clean my barrel) The groups had not been getting better due to powder quantity but the fact that the barrel was getting dirty. Now I load a few extra of the start load, just to get the barrel dirty. Once properly tested through a dirtyish barrel I had much better and consistant results. I still clean my barrel each time I use the gun and I know that the groups will tighten up by 1/4 inch to a ragged hole after a few rnds but my main aim (sorry bout the pun) is to have an accurate first shot from a cold barrel. Because of this simplest of facts I played around with the load, oal,and neck tension trying to get a consistantly accurate load,of course it wasnt going to happen, god knows how many bullets I got through. If your foundations are good you have something to build on.

Noted. Cheers Regum!