washerboy Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 1/4 and 3/4 is the choke sizes in the sxs i will be owning does this effect what cartridges i need to be chooseing? keeps you on your toes and brightens up a dull day thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Perusal of the figures will reflect that one step up in terms of performance (which is what choke is) as opposed to dimensions (which is what choke isn't) gains very little in pattern density - it won't even give you an extra pellet per pigeon in the usual decoying situation. Consequently, what you have acquired is ideal for virtually all circumstances and where this is not the case, a change of cartridge will resolve the problem. A properly conducted pattern test will ensure that your barrel/cartridge combination is delivering the performance that you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldivalloch Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 It's not that simple! I take it you're going to be owning a reasonably modern gun, something made within, say the last twenty-five years and in good repair (not pitted or loose)? First thing that determines the cartridges you should be choosing is calibre (obviously!). Is the gun a twelve-bore, a twenty, etc? Next, and this is VERY important, chamber length - you don't want to be trying to fire three-inch cartridges through a gun with two-and-a-half or two-and-three-quarter inch chambers. After that, service pressure. Find out what your gun's proofed for and DON'T use cartridges that exceed that figure. Weight of the gun. A good rule of thumb is to use a load that is roughly one ninety-sixth of the weight of the gun. A light load will, generally speaking, make for light recoil. A heavy load will do the opposite - in the worst analysis it will rattle your fillings, blacken your shoulder, make you develop a flinch and strain your gun. Some folk on this forum seem to like firing heavy loads through standard guns. They are either masochists, macho-men, ignorant or just plain stupid. What sort of shooting are you planning to do? Clays? Rough shooting? Pigeons? Driven game? Wildfowling? The answer will indicate what size of shot you need. Choose within the capabilities of your gun - make sure the load / pellet size combination offers a decent pattern within the ranges at which you'll be taking your shots. And remember that some older guns aren't up to using steel loads. And steel is less forgiving (less compressible) than lead and so shouldn't be used in tighter chokes. Half-choke is probably tight enough. If you want to have information at your finger-tips, do some reading. There's a lot of good books on guns and shooting; you can pick up a lot of information from them and reading about the sport is great for keeping you interested when you can't be out because of weather / closed seasons / work and so on. Be safe and enjoy yourself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 It's not that simple! Yes it is. The guy asked a perfectly sensible and straightforward question on choke: Not for a thesis on the development and use of the modern shotgun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washerboy Posted January 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Aldiv Rough shooting,pigeon, magpies odd rabbit. 28" barrelled;2 3/4 sxs. Cant See me duck shooting, so steel isnt on the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodcock1 Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Cartridges in the 28-32g in shot sizes 5- 71/2 will cover almost anything at sensible ranges. Try plenty of variety to begin with within this range, see what you like. Fire a couple of each at a sheet of a3 paper and see if there is a nice even spread of shot at the ranges you are comfortable shooting. 40 paces is a long way. If there are big gaps in the pattern try a different shell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldivalloch Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Yes it is. The guy asked a perfectly sensible and straightforward question on choke: Not for a thesis on the development and use of the modern shotgun! Well, next time somebody asks an open question we'll just refer him - or her - to you for the answer, since you obviously think yours was all-encompassing. No point in anybody else offering their advice. Smartypants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Well, next time somebody asks an open question we'll just refer him - or her - to you for the answer, since you obviously think yours was all-encompassing. No point in anybody else offering their advice. Smartypants. Yep, that wouldn't be a bad idea. After all, he who reads forgets, he who sees remembers but he who does knows and you seem to be still in the former stage quoting from something written for young sportsmen in the 1950s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldivalloch Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Yep, that wouldn't be a bad idea. After all, he who reads forgets, he who sees remembers but he who does knows and you seem to be still in the former stage quoting from something written for young sportsmen in the 1950s. Wymberley - congratulations on your apparently magical capacity to know me without ever having spoken to me or met me! Is it a pseudo-Confucian thing? I see the OP responded in a much more courteous fashion. Given that he asked the question, it may be that he is a better placed to comment on the merits of my answer than a know-all forum-sniper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 aldivalloch, i personally thought your first reply was very interesting and a good read and may i thankyou for taking the time to write it because i found it interesting even if others didn,t thanks again buddy ,,,all the best Evo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 1/4 and 3/4 is the choke sizes in the sxs i will be owning does this effect what cartridges i need to be chooseing? keeps you on your toes and brightens up a dull day thanks in advance i use a 1974 Eibar sxs 28 inch barrels,,3/4 and full choke with 70mm chambers for all my shooting and just to let you know i use whatever comes cheapest on the pigeons , but will use steel sizes from no4,s up to 7 1/2,s without any problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldivalloch Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Thanks, Evo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Side by side, likely to be fairly light, I would suggest Eley Impax 28gr or similar. Some SBS guns handle 30gr loads, usually the heavier boxlocks such as the Winchester but I would personally stick to 28gr loads. They will do all you want out to 30 yards and a bit more if pushed. Tighter chokes like 3/4 mean a smaller diameter spread yes but a longer shot string. So instead of a pattern going through the air like a dustbin lid it is more like a road cone. Hope that helps. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washerboy Posted January 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Thanks,i get what the choke Does now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 (edited) Wymberley - congratulations on your apparently magical capacity to know me without ever having spoken to me or met me! Is it a pseudo-Confucian thing? I see the OP responded in a much more courteous fashion. Given that he asked the question, it may be that he is a better placed to comment on the merits of my answer than a know-all forum-sniper. Well, that's a bit rich. You were the one that said it wasn't that simple and then proceeded to give an eight paragraph answer in which the only reference to choke - the only thrust of the OP's question - involved a brief reference to steel. Let's have a look at your longest and most detailed paragraph. If words were allocated the same level of age as objects in order to qualify as antiques, then the 96 to 1 meets that requirement with decades to spare (OK I exaggerate a little). This originated when shot trundled down the barrel at about 1200ft/sec, but you may not have noticed that this is now anything up to 1450 or more (often to the detriment of pattern density/quality). A quick calculation reflects that if the original 96:1 is deemed acceptable, then, now, c125:1 is more appropriate. This is probably why in this modern era, the (somewhat heavier than the older lightweight sby)s OU guns reign supreme. As has been shown, some are aware of this and have added sensibly to the discussion. Reading and then forgetting to cater for progress could, apart from premature and unnecessary shoulder damage, adversely affect a shooter's performance and thus, possibly, pleasure if he/she were to adopt this outdated empirical formula. Consequently, in addition to your valid point about loads weights, a suggestion to look carefully at the observed velocity of the cartridge would have been equally advantageous. As said, it really is that simple. Edited January 20, 2013 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 can someone please explain the above post as i havn,t got a clue what the hell it means,totally chinese to me , sorry wimberley not getting at ya bud but i just havn,t got a clue what your last post was on about, ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldivalloch Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 At the risk of prolonging this discussion I think you should go back and consider the original post. The OP informed us that he is to become the owner of a side-by-side shotgun with quarter and three-quarter chokes. He then asked how this would "effect what cartridges i need to be choosing". So I inferred that his question was actually about appropriate cartridges, rather than choke, as whilst he can do little about the latter without resorting to a gunsmith, careful selection of the former should allow him to cater for most of his shooting situations. And rather than recommend particular cartridges I thought I'd offer him some criteria to assist him in choosing. I accept that the 96:1 ratio has been around for a long time. But it seems to have served an awful lot of shooters very well over that period. And it may also be the case that the faster-burning powders employed to produce the higher velocities of modern cartridges cause no appreciable increase in felt recoil. The "oldies" took a pretty sophisticated approach to their shooting and tailored their guns accordingly. Fowling guns were heavy, large-calibre weapons; live-pigeon guns, the forerunners of clay-pigeon guns, were built heavy to absorb the recoil of repeated shots. Game-guns offered a combination of moderate weight for ease of manipulation (repeated mounting and swinging on big days) and recoil absorption from the many shots fired. And the rough-shooter was well advised to choose a lighter gun for ease of portability, the trade-off being increased recoil in the relatively few shots he would take in a day. Plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose (sorry, can't find the cedilla or circumflex) Don't be too quick to knock their theories. Old isn't automatically irrelevant, as you've indicated by your observations on the effects on pattern quality of high velocity. Don't forget that the oldies who shot with muzzle-loaders used to tighten their patterns by reducing the powder-load. Their maxim was "Little powder, much lead, kills far, kills dead". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 can someone please explain the above post as i havn,t got a clue what the hell it means,totally chinese to me , sorry wimberley not getting at ya bud but i just havn,t got a clue what your last post was on about, ??? No problem. Many years ago an empirical 'formula' was devised in an attempt to prevent people 'overgunning themselves' shall we say. Let me say straight off that it is purely based on muzzle energy: fiddle factors for the so called "perceived" or "felt" recoil were not possible as the potential variations in this are directly proportional on a one to one basis to the number of shooters. Consequently it is broad brush in nature but did work and work well and still does with due consideration. As we know, the effective range of a gun when comparing different bores but firing similar shot sizes is purely dependent upon the number of pellets because the pellets from a .410 travel at the same speed as those from a 12 bore. Therefore, as the velocity is constant, the only change to muzzle energy and thus recoil must be a function of the weight of the load. It was ruled based on experience that for the average Joe Bloggs that he would be able to comfortably shoot a cartridge if the gun weighed 96 times the weight of the load. It must be stressed that the figure of 96 would have been based on a MV of c1100ishft/secabout and therefore allowances must be made for differing speeds. I would just like to say that I agree entirely with aldivalloch's final sentence in the previous (#17) post. Our biggest problem, however, has been a reluctance to question those theories which are, and can be shown to be, wrong. This is NOT a criticism for we owe a great debt of gratitude to what has been achieved with the technology available but similarly we should not be afraid of adopting what our current technology offers us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldivalloch Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 Wymberley, we should meet up sometime! We might end up behaving like the Statler and Waldorf of Pigeon Watch, but the conversation would be stimulating...... Regards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Assuming you have 2 3\4 inch chambers ( almost all guns made in the last 30 years have unless magnums ) any load between 28 gr and 32 gr will do fine for rabbits \ pigeons \ pheasants ect with the chokes you have. I would use no 6 shot size , but anything between no 5 and 7 will do the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washerboy Posted January 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 yes, 70mm chambers. tempted by a lighter load, 26g in size 6 or 7. or lighter if possable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 yes, 70mm chambers. tempted by a lighter load, 26g in size 6 or 7. or lighter if possable Steady as you go. For the 1/4 barrel (assuming that it actually shoots that) you'd need, say, 61/2 shot to keep the necessary pellet strike up for live quarry - the slightly reduced energy affecting the max. range. Numerically, 26g of 61/2 will give you a few pellets less than 30g of 6s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washerboy Posted January 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 so i can go too light as well as too heavy I will not be shooting 50 + cartridges a day, so i could stick at 28g and not be effected. i have shot a friends sxs using 30g and 28g, both gamebore and it kicked like a mule and im not a lightweight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 so i can go too light as well as too heavy I will not be shooting 50 + cartridges a day, so i could stick at 28g and not be effected. i have shot a friends sxs using 30g and 28g, both gamebore and it kicked like a mule and im not a lightweight Yep, for live quarry obtaining a clean kill is paramount. 61/2 or 7 for pigeon, yep OK. For rabbit being larger a few less pellets of the harder hitting 6, or even 5 is also OK. If you're getting kicked by 28 or 30 in anything other than a really lightweight gun, I'd be inclined to have a look at gunfit. For starters, any bruising? If so, where? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washerboy Posted January 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 there was no bruising, i had more skins on then an onion....and natural padding just seemed to kick, it wasnt my gun and i havnt often shot it, so it was probably me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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